Wondering what i need for cleaning and shooting a .50 caliber Renegade Hunter?

[isaacdavis1214]

So was that you in the video Mongrel?That rifle is very nice,but i would be very hesitant to shoot it that thing has an insane amount of power.I am going to check the local Wal-Mart and gunshop here to see if they stock black powder or and bp firearm accessories,if not it's to the online shoping for me.I'm thinking of buying some Minnie Bullets as well as PRB's to shoot for my rifle,as the Minnie Balls/Bullets seem pretty neat as well.

[mongrel]

You won't find real black powder at Wal-Mart (or Bass Pro or Cabela's or Dick's or most other "big box" type stores). The BATF storage requirements for the stuff are extremely strict, owing to how volatile it can be, so most sporting goods stores and stores that have sporting goods sections (Wal-Mart, Target, Meijer, etc) simply won't fool with it. What you WILL find are at least one or two varieties of synthetic or "substitute" black powder, such as Pyrodex, Shockey's Gold, Triple 7, and others. These work acceptably well in percussion guns and are generally absolutely worthless in flinters. If you opt for one of the substitutes, avoid the pellet types and buy loose powder in the can.

You'll find that actual BP, to mail order it, is fairly expensive once you factor in the haz-mat and special handling fees, if you only buy one or two cans. It pays to grit your teeth and place a larger order and just figure you're buying a lifetime's worth of gunpowder in one helping. This spreads the extra fees over a larger number of one-pound cans and lowers the cost per can.

If you know of a BP gun club in your area, many such outfits are set up to sell powder to members of the club and are usually able to order in fairly good bulk to keep costs down about as much as can be. Another trick is to hang out with as many BP shooters as possible and pool all your powder needs into one order.

Other members here will no doubt have further suggestions, since you've now introduced one of our favorite topics of discussion -- the acquisition of black powder and what methods work best to achieve that goal. There will also, no doubt, be debate as to the relative merits of "real" BP versus the substitutes. Remember that, if pyrodex or some other substitute is all your circumstances (finances, location, whatever) will allow you to get, for now, the important thing is to get out there and shoot. If it has to be with a substitute powder, so be it!

[William]

I have to disagree with Mongrel in listing Bass Pro Shops as not having real BP as the in my area does indeed carry Goex.  At places like that you must ask someone in the gun department if they carry black powder as they aren't allowed to advertise if they carry it and you might just ask for Goex to begin with.  If they point you to the reloading aisle or the smokeless powder then they don't know what they are doing, ask to see the manager and pose the question to him.  If they do traditional black powder then it will be stored in a locked case so you have to have the person, usually the manager, to get it for you.  I tell you all this because I was actually at Bass Pro shop in San Antonio, TX waiting in line to take a number during a particularly busy day at the gun department when a roving manager asked if there was something in particular I was looking for.  When I told her that I needed a pound of Goex she just stared, then I said that I needed black powder she pointed at the aisle of smokeless powder, so I just smiled and took a number.  There's no telling of what might have happened if I had not known any better.  Anyway, that was before I knew how to order it on line and last I checked, a pound of Goex at Bass Pro was up to $24.99 plus tax.  Even though you have to order 5 pounds minimum, Powder Inc.'s price per pound of Goex is $22.95 and that is with the haz-mat fee as well as shipping.  I know 5 pounds sounds like a lot, and it is for most people but going in with a couple other folks makes it possible for those of us on a budget.  This is another plus when joining a muzzle loader club, you automatically have a list of friends who always need more powder-

[mongrel]

Thanks for the heads-up on at least the possibility of acquiring black powder at Bass Pro, William. The nearest Bass Pro is about forty miles from me and I haven't been there in many a moon, and since I didn't see black powder in stock when I did go there I simply assumed it was like other sporting goods outfits -- as I described, just not wanting to fool with the stuff.

Fortunately I ordered a case of powder some years back and at the rate I'm NOT shooting, when they break the doors down due to the stench of my rotting carcass there will be quite a few cans left for the fire department to worry about.

Knowing the guys around here, their "worry" will be how to get the stuff out of the house without anyone seeing or a report being filed, and my stash will be put to good use driving projectiles through the ribcages of whitetailed deer....

[William]

since I didn't see black powder in stock when I did go there I simply assumed it was like other sporting goods outfits -- as I described, just not wanting to fool with the stuff.
I think there was a time that Walmart, Kmart, even JC Penny/Sears sold firearms and even Cabelas sold real BP.  Don't get the wrong impression about Bass Pro Shops either, as they only stock up on muzzle loading gear right before deer season and more and more of it is blister packs of hyped up pistol bullets marketed for In@#$'s.  But at least they continue to carry Goex and I'm happy to let people needing it where it can be found.  It's nearly a 30 miles trip one way to the nearest store for me too.

Fortunately I ordered a case of powder some years back and at the rate I'm NOT shooting, when they break the doors down due to the stench of my rotting carcass there will be quite a few cans left for the fire department to worry about.
LOL!    Knowing the guys around here, their "worry" will be how to get the stuff out of the house without anyone seeing or a report being filed, and my stash will be put to good use driving projectiles through the ribcages of whitetailed deer....

I wish I could afford to buy a 25 pound case of powder just for myself, but then finding a place to put it all in my condo becomes a problem!

[flintboomer]

The last time I was at a Bass Pro here in Denver they had a can (Probably an empty one.) of Goex in the case with the black powder and cowboy type handguns with a price tag of $25 or more on it, so it does pay to ask. Most of us around here either buy through clubs or get a few people together and order a case. The last time I bought some it was from a club auction and I paid $75 for 5 pounds or $15.00 per can. I can easily go through that in a year or two.

[isaacdavis1214]

I'm not sure if the Bass Pro around here has BP or not,it is roughly 30 minutes away so it's not that bad of a drive.I'm wondering if i could possibly call them and see if they have any BP or not.If they don't i will settle for the substitutes for now,i don't want to open a can of worms.But in your guys opinion is bp better than the substitutes?Or is it a personal preference kind of thing?I personally would rather shoot real bp but it seems like it could be a hassle to acquire some.Also id the pellets of powder used for inline muzzleloaders?As i have always hated the way those things looked lol.

[Dogshirt]

I will only shoot the real thing in my rifles, but I have no problems finding it.
That being said, SOME folks will tell you that there are corrosion issues with the substitues. I don't know,
never used them. These same people will tell you it doesn't matter how well you clean, they will eat up your
barrel. Once again, I can't say one way or the other.
Other people will tell you that there are no problems like that, they've shot these subs for years. That if
you clean properly, there are no corrosion issues. Again, no experiance with them.
I do know that they have been around for some time now, and in some places they are all that is available.
The store where I buy everything but BP can't carry it because there is a residence attached, but the pawn
shop in town does have it.
What I can tell you is to use the substitutes by VOLUME only, NOT by weight.
And no matter what you end up shooting, clean your rifle well.

[Rev]

I, too, will only shoot the real thing. It took me years to get my mother in law to try it, because the T/C manual said to use Pyrodex. When she bought her custom rifle from Andy Lund, he told her to shoot the real stuff in it. Funny how she believed him & not me...

[isaacdavis1214]

I would love to shoot the real thing,but not sure how available it is in my area.So if i got the substitute powders 50 grains of substitute powder wouldn't exactly equal 50 grains of real bp?I wish bp was readily available,requiring a hazmat fee and i believe whatever store carries the real stuff also has to have an explosive licennse in order to be able to stock bp?That's too much and ridiculous.

[beowulf]

 there`s a weight difference between black powder and the substitutes . so  , you measure by volume . the charge that your  measure holds  ,while not of equal weight is of equal power !  so if your rifle calls for a 50 ,60 ,80 grain or whatever , just use the appropriate measure and dont worry about the weight of the charge !  another thing is most of the substitutes do not work in flint locks , although they are making some now that are supposed to be able to use substitute powders , would`nt know myself have`nt tried the new rifles ! be careful and have fun !

[mongrel]

No, unfortunately, it's not ridiculous. It's easy to forget that store owners are subject to an entire different set of liability issues than private parties, and their livelihoods as well as their lives are liable to be in jeopardy if something goes wrong. Real black powder is an incredibly volatile substance. The substitutes are more forgiving, which is why many outfits that won't deal with the regulations concerning the stocking and storage of BP will still carry Pyrodex or similar products. Given the variety of incredibly stupid behavior and/or bad luck I've witnessed over the years, IMHO there is good reason for the strictness of current regulations in regard to BP. The fact that there is almost no one left in this country capable of accepting personal responsibility for their own carelessness and/or stupidity, or of taking a "fecal matter happens" attitude toward pure accidents, just reinforces my opinion on this.

As Beowulf said, you load Pyrodex (I'm not familiar with the qualities of other substitutes so can't advise on them) in the same volume as BP. In other words, you set your powder measure to a desired charge of BP and then dump Pyrodex in, instead. Weight-wise I believe Pyrodex goes further than BP, given loads of equal volume, but use the same powder measure for either BP or Pyrodex and don't worry about the difference in weight, other than calculating how many shots of a given powder charge your pound of material will yield, if that sort of thing is important to you.

[William]

I'm not sure if the Bass Pro around here has BP or not,it is roughly 30 minutes away so it's not that bad of a drive.I'm wondering if i could possibly call them and see if they have any BP or not.If they don't i will settle for the substitutes for now,i don't want to open a can of worms.But in your guys opinion is bp better than the substitutes?Or is it a personal preference kind of thing?I personally would rather shoot real bp but it seems like it could be a hassle to acquire some. Also id the pellets of powder used for inline muzzleloaders?As i have always hated the way those things looked lol.

In my opinion (IMO) yes, traditional black powder is better than any of the substitutes but if you can't find it locally and just don't have the money or enough friends who also need it to order 5 pounds of it (that is the minimum most companies impose) then by all means, use a substitute.  You will find that when it comes to subs, everyone has an opinion on which one is the best but understand that for as much research that goes into developing them, marketing hype or word of mouth, they are all different in one way or another from the substance they are trying to imitate; traditional charcoal/salt peter/sulpher (black powder).  Pellets are for inlines only, don't waste your time or money trying to get them to work in your sidelock or cap & ball pistol.  Keep in mind that since Bass Pro can't advertise that they sell Goex(BP) that you may have difficulty getting a straight answer when you call your local shop and you will have to specifically ask to speak with the manager of the gun department who is the only one likely to have the key to the powder safe.  Here's the info all of the mail order distributors of Goex, but keep in mind that there is also Swiss, Schuetzen, KIK and Elephant(?) in addition to Goex.
Powder, Inc.
1861 North College Ave.
Clarksville, AR 72830
479-705-0005, Fax: 479-754-6281
Toll Free: 877-833-1799
E-mail: powderinc@centurytel.net
Website: www.powderinc.com

W. A. Murphy, Inc.
P. O. Box 4607
El Monte, CA 91734-0607
626-444-9271, Fax: 626-575-2848
E-mail: reloadit@murphypowder.com
Website: www.murphypowder.com

Deer Creek Products
P.O. Box 246
Waldron, IN 46182
765-525-6181, Fax: 765-525-6181

The Maine Powder House
482 Sokokis Ave.
P.O. Box 519
Limington, ME 04049
207-637-3775, Fax: 207-637-3623
E-mail: chris@mainepowderhouse.com
Website: www.mainepowderhouse.com

Graf & Sons, Inc.
4050 South Clark
Mexico, MO  65265
800-444-9360
Fax: 800-367-7626

This place requires that you call first but you can buy from them in person; http://www.blackpowderva.com/
Back Creek Gun Shop
863 Chestnut Grove Rd.
Winchester, Va 22603
540-888-3349
E-mail: bcgsi@visuallink.com
Website: www.blackpowderva.com

Bear River Powder
P.O. Box 2853
Evanston, WY 82931
307-789-3613 or 307-679-0886
E-mail: bearriverpowder@allwest.net

Coonie's Explosives & Black Powder, Inc.
512 East Lea, Box 2062
Hobbs, NM 88240
800-713-6321, 575-393-0166,
Fax: 575-393-6060
E-mail: cooniesblkpdr@aol.com

[William]

I found out that Diamondback Black Powder is being made in the old Elephant plant there in Brazil.  If there is a Gander Mountain or even a Cabelas near your Issac, try them and see if they carry Goex.

When it comes to subs, everyone has an opinion on them and their favorite type.  I am no different and after trying American Pioneer Powder (APP) Pyrodex powder and pellets as well as Triple 7.  If I absolutely couldn't get real BP I would again go with T-7 in both my muzzle loaders as well as my CAS cartridge guns.  If you go with a substitute and choose T-7, go with the 2F and keep in mind that you must reduce your loads of it by 10% compared to real BP becuase it is more energetic.  My .54 does best with 85 grains of 2f Goex, so if I used Triple 7 I would measure 76.5 grains by volume with my powder measure.  As has been mentioned, do not weigh your powder charges, always use a volume measurment.  Here's a list of distributors of some other types of traditional BP;

Schuetzen Powder LLC Imports: Schuetzen, Wano and Swiss Black Powder
Distributors of Schuetzen, Wano, and Swiss:
Track of the Wolf Swiss
The Back Creek Gun Shop
Buffal Arms
Crater Fireworks & Blasting
Main Powder House
Upper Missouri Trading
Powder Inc

Distributors of KIK Powder: Made in Slovenia
Powder Inc
Nor'West Company

Distributors of Diamondback Powder: Made in Brazil
Jack's Powder Keg Back Creek Gun Shop
Powder Inc
Premium Powder and Pyrotechnics
Crater Fireworks & Blasting

[old salt]

The only distributor that I have personally is Powder Inc and I buy by it in 25# lots. Yes the first case was bit bite in the wallet, nest orders were not as bad as when I shot a pound I take and check the price and put the money in a coffee can. Then when I need the next case I already have the price in hand.
Buying in case lot you can buy mixed granulation.
Just one way of doing it.