weak 777

[topbreak]

I recently broke out my Remington Sheriff NMA and in an effort to conserve my Swiss 3f I loaded it with some 3f 777 I had in a flask. Well lo and behold, when I shot it over my chronograph I got lousy velocities averaging in the low 600's and that's with 30 grains. I figured that with weak 777 it should be safe to shoot in my 8 inch brass remmy so I broke out the chronograph again today and got velocities averaging 722 fps. Not great but good enough for plinking without stressing the brass and a good way to use up the weak 777. I know most of you guys shoot the holy black but how many of you have had this issue with the subs. I have had pyrodex weaken if it was stored in a horn or flask but it seems to retain its umph if kept in its original bottle.

Don

[Patocazador]

My opinion: The only sub I use is Blackhorn 209. All the rest seem to deteriorate quickly once the container is opened. Real black is what you want to use since BH 209 is hard to ignite.

[topbreak]

I have quite a bit of the subs left but much of it is unopened. I tend to go through the Pyrodex RS rather quickly. Black horn only comes in a 2f granulation or am I wrong? As for the 3f777 or Pyro P I'll just check performance with my chrono and use it for plinking if its deteriorated.

Don

[Patocazador]

Blackhorn 209 only comes in one flavor. They are little tubes. They need a modern primer to ignite unless you use a 2 part load with about 5-10 gr 3F followed by the Blackhorn.

[hotfxr]

Although I will not even allow a container with "sub" powder on my property and anyone bringing some to a shoot will be refused entry, I was not always so enlightened. In the dark days before I found this forum I came into possession of a Pietta 1851 pistol and container of 777. For some unknown reason I chronograph every firearm I own, borrow, or get close to. Without being able to remember the numbers, I know that nobody was impressed the pistol's performance and it was summarily banished to a dark cabinet, along with the 777, to be forgotten for a few years. Upon rediscovering that pistol after I had been blessed with non-judgmental help and advise from the members of this esteemed forum, we decided to to try it again.  Still not being able to remember the fps, with the same load (it was written on the side of the container) we noticed about a 20% reduction of velocity.  This has been verified by a few other former 777 users who also noticed a breakdown in that accused substitute powder.

Being the "on the cheap" person that I am, I gave the powder to a former acquaintance who had an in-line (and thought is was a real BP firearm) for his use and then banned him from ever shooting with us again.

Something to think about, real black powder can be used as a fertilizer, Pyrodex and it's like can be used as a weed killer.

[Hanshi]

Although I will not even allow a container with "sub" powder on my property and anyone bringing some to a shoot will be refused entry.

Brother hotfxr and I stand united on this!  Long ago I was gifted three cans of Pyrodex.  Just to see what it was all about I loaded a few .45 Colt cartridges with it and loaded my c&b revolver with it.  Over the chronograph the velocities were unusually pedestrian and shot to shot spread was sometimes on the order of 150+ fps.  I used it for fertilizer.  Nuff said!

[topbreak]

Though I appreciate your take on the real deal none of the sporting goods stores in my area carry real black but usually have a ready supply of the subs. The black powder I do have was acquired on line at great expense and I cherish it especially the Swiss. I wish I had the luxury of relying on it exclusively but if I did I would shoot far less than I do. The subs, when fresh have performed well for me and I have no reason to hold the hard prejudice against it that you do. Like a lot of things we buy and use there are trade offs and aged weak powder I guess is one I will have to deal with.

Don

[Hanshi]

Topbreak, I hope you caught the fact that the two posts were from the perspective of humor.  We do not begrudge anyone the use of any item that enables one to pursue our sport.  BP is indeed sometimes difficult to find and the cost is often prohibitive.  Pyrodex is the only sub I've ever tried and, no, it is not for me.  If any propellent works safely for you I encourage you to use it.

In my muzzleloading career all the subs are recent developments to me.  I can't find BP locally in any place I've lived in over 20 years.  So I either order it on line or go in with others to order it.  I've ordered 25 lb cases of Goex products on multiple occasions.  Compared to buying one can at a time it's very affordable to order it.  Minimum orders are often just 4 or 5 lbs to get good prices.  That's the only way it's available to me.  Swiss is too costly for my budget and there are sources for Goex powders where the costs don't make my hair stand up.  Read the posts with a WINK in mind.

[hotfxr]

What Hanshi said. When I do order BP, online it has cost me an average of $21 per pound. That is for Goex. The trick is to check in frequently on the websites, they have sales all the time, just not ALL the time. I am not sure I am supposed to mention any specific sites, but since the Badger is down and he can't get to me, I have had the best luck with Graf & Sons, (
https://www.grafs.com/  ) they have had the best prices when I was looking. Their house brand is usually even cheaper. I do not shoot enough to tell a difference between the house brand and Goex.

If you have to use Pyrodex, just make sure you clean your firearm as quickly as you can after shooting. It is much more corrosive than BP. The main thing, of course, no matter what you use to propel a ball down range, enjoy yourself.