Drum seal question??

[Rounder]

I just picked up a Ped Kent Rifle in .50 and noticed it has a couple of brass washer between the drum and the barrel. I went to remove the cleanout screw and the drum came lose instead. The guns been sitting and its rusty so the screw is probably rusted in.

I want to know if its common to have these washers between the drum and barrel or is it something I should worry about?
Is there a fix I can do to eliminate them and still get the nipple to line up correctly?
Thank you

[William]

As far as I know this is not common and would send up all sorts of red flags in my book!  Maybe I'm wrong but I would not shoot this until checked out by a gunsmith who is familiar with muzzle loaders.

[punjab]

My guess is that when the rifle was assembled the hammer did not line up with the nipple so instead of bending the hammer someone put washers between the barrel and the drum,not a safe practice because the drum threads are not fully engaged in the barrel.The other possibility is the drum threads went to far into the barrel and the washers were used to adjust and the hammer bent to fit.both problems are easy to fix but it needs to be looked at by a muzzleloading gunsmith.The drum can be a serious projectile if it comes out when the gun is fired.

[hotfxr]

What William said. It can be safe as long as the thread body goes into the barrel deep enough (I have a pistol with a spacer that has been checked out and works just fine, emphasis on the "checked out'"part). But usually you find spacers when someone changes a drum and the nipple no longer lines up. The thickness of the washers is that much space that is not making metal to metal contact in the area of the gun that goes boom. And it might not be the correct drum in the first place. I would take it out, check the depth and condition of the threads in the barrel. If the threads are in good shape it costs less than $10 to buy the correct drum and it is simple for anyone that is familiar with a drill press and taps to properly install a new nipple in the correctly installed drum. This is the area of your firearm that is under the most pressure when the powder lights off and the last place you want to cut corners and take any chances. Be safe and good luck.

[Rounder]

Well the word washer was an overstatement.
Previous owner tells me... "they are not washers but two thin pieces of brass sheeting cut into washers because a washer was way to thick, he said it gradually moved forward a bit after repeated tightening but has shot it like this for years". I have not measured them but they are very thin (think pop can) and doubt they lessen the threading inside at all. He said without them the hammer doesn't align with the nipple correctly. I would prefer to remove them. If someone has suggestions on another way to make the drum thread in just a bit less and stay put? 

[mongrel]

This is a common problem with percussion drums when the owners of the guns insist on removing them other than when absolutely necessary. Metal wears slightly every time it's tightened against other metal. Eventually the drum threads in further than it did when first installed, and the nipple no longer lines up with the hammer nose. It's also common for this fix to be applied when (usually an amateur) gun builder either drills and taps in the wrong location for the nipple, or uses a pre-drilled drum, and the nipple winds up too far forward when the drum is tightened down.

Note to folks in general, not necessarily to Rounder himself -- just because it can be unscrewed does NOT necessarily mean it should be. The nipple and cleanout screw both can be removed with no issues, and for any imaginable purpose that's all that needs to be done. Leave the drum itself (and the vent liner on a flint gun) in the barrel wall where it belongs. Not to go off on a tangent, but in regard to the vent liners of flintlocks, if a liner can be easily removed that means it has a screwdriver slot. If the liner gradually turns further forward than it originally did, eventually the screwdriver slot will wind up angled down, extending between the barrel wall and bolster of the lock. This creates a recess for priming powder and residue to sneak into -- not a good thing, for a variety of reasons, and a potential problem that in my opinion outweighs any imagined convenience in removing the liner other than when the flash hole has worn and replacement is necessary.

Anyhow, back to the topic -- the ideal solution for Rounder's problem is to buy a drum that hasn't been drilled and tapped for a nipple. Most of the major parts suppliers such as Track Of The Wolf or Muzzleloader Builder's Supply sell blank drums. You will need to determine both the proper thread size and pitch of the hole in the barrel, and that the threads in that hole aren't worn, rusted, or otherwise buggered-up. Thread in the new drum, and, lowering the hammer, determine where the nipple needs to be located in order for the hammer nose to strike it squarely. It's not a bad idea to order two or three blank drums, due to the possibility of not getting the nipple position quite right on the first try (they only cost a few dollars so we aren't talking a major investment, here). Drill and tap for the nipple. If you're unsure of the threading of your existing nipple (1/4-28 is standard, but 6x1mm nipples like those on CVA and Traditions guns are sometimes used, and you have to know beyond doubt which it is you've got), order a few new nipples along with your drums and start all-new. Be sure things thread up tight and solid when the job is done -- and, as I stated already, after that regard the drum as an integral part of the barrel and only remove the nipple and cleanout screw.

[Rounder]

Mongrel thank you for the informative reply.
I was hoping or an easier fix than you mentioned above.
I see you that Track and MBS sell drums that are already threaded for the barrel and the nipple.

1. What are the odds that these will line up with the hammer/nipple when installed? There must be a way to make them work ??

2. Does anyone know what size threads (Pedersoli) are on the drum/barrel side I believe the nipple is 1/4 x 28?

3. How hard would it be to turn this into a flinter??

[mongrel]

The odds of buying a single drum, already threaded for the nipple, and having the nipple line up with the hammer when the drum is threaded in tightly, are not good. This is why you see shims under the drums of many rifles. Even buying several drums -- I wouldn't care to bet money on even one lining up correctly. The margin of error for the hammer nose to strike the nipple squarely and on center is very narrow.

As for the threading of the drum into the barrel, I won't venture a guess on that. It's probably metric, but maybe not. Many of the nipple holes on Italian guns are threaded 6x.75mm but I've also run across Pedersoli and other Italian products that were threaded for 1/4-28 nipples.

The general consensus of the gunsmiths on this forum, myself included, is that in a case like this you need to take the rifle to a gunsmith with either specific knowledge of muzzleloading firearms or at least the common sense to look at the problem and apply general gunsmithing technique to safely fix it. This is NOT an issue that should be worked on based on advice given here or on any other discussion board. Believe me, you'll find plenty of people willing and able to tell you what's wrong and how to fix it, but there is zero guarantee any of them have any idea what they're talking about, and if all they do is make the wrong call about the thread size of either the drum or nipple it won't matter how right the rest of their suggestions might be. These sorts of things have to be done right, by someone knowing his stuff, and who has the rifle there on his bench to check out both what needs to be done and then how well the job turned out. As has been said, both drums and nipples can become deadly projectiles if they're loose or mis-threaded.

I'm not trying to be overly serious or discouraging, here, but this isn't something where an "easy" fix factors into it. The only fix that's acceptable is the right one, and that means seeking out the services of a professional. If there is a BP gun club in your area, someone there should either be able to do the work or point you to someone else who can, and I believe most any competent general gunsmith can do the work if he's willing to. It's not complicated or overly hard, it just needs to be done right.

Best of luck.

[BruceB]

Amen Mike! Not only does the nip need to line up but there should be no projection of the threads into the bore. Patch grabbing, foul holding etc. Find a good mahinist if not a BP gunsmith. Tell him the specifications and concerns. Drums are kinda scary anyhow. Now a touch hole, that's living.

[Rounder]

Thanks for the info.
I figured if they sold drums already threaded there should be a way to use one but it sounds like it would probably end up with the same shimmed set up I currently have.
I
have spent most of my life working with tools, cutting, welding etc and building things that are unique like motorcycles, sidecars, trailers, go karts and minibikes for my children when they were young. I have been slicking up guns an tearing them apart for many years but ML are something new to me.
Id like to build a flinter one day soon but would like to know what I would need to do to turn this Ped Kent rifle into a flint? I obviously have to buy a new lock but what else is needed.

[mongrel]

To convert the gun to flint is relatively easy, particularly if you have mechanical inclination and experience. However, on these Pedersoli models you can run into difficulties that have nothing to do with your own abilities.

Dixie Gun Works sells locks for this model gun, retailing at $189.95 plus $12.95 shipping. The first potential problem lies in this area. Pedersoli has changed the internals of this lock at least once in recent years, and I've also found that depending on the age of a particular gun a new lock may not be a perfect fit in an older gun's lock mortice. Some inletting of the wood is liable to be required. On the off-chance that the positioning of the lock bolt holes was changed at some point, it would be necessary in that case to plug one or both of the existing bolt holes in the lockplate, and re-drill and tap according to where the holes are in the sideplate and stock (the sideplate is the brass piece on the lefthand side of the breech area of the stock, through which the lock bolts pass).

The percussion drum needs to be replaced with a vent liner, also called a flash hole liner. Obviously, here, what's critical is the thread pitch of the hole in the barrel, and that those threads are in decent shape. Dixie, again (to use only one supplier and keep shipping costs minimal), sells a variety of vent liners, including at least one for the Pedersoli rifles. You would want one that has a slight shoulder above the threads, to seat firmly against the side flat of the barrel. If there is any uncertainty in regard to size or thread pitch, or your barrel threads are worn or corroded, I would recommend buying a liner of the next thread size up and re-tapping the hole to accommodate it. Aftermarket liners are usually somewhat over-length to work with any diameter and caliber of barrel (obviously a 1" diameter barrel in .32 caliber would have far thicker barrel walls than a 13/16" diameter in .45 caliber) and will usually require trimming-down to install properly.

Please pay close attention to the following. The advice above is given in a general sense, without me having access to your specific gun. It might very well NOT happen, and with some inletting and fitting everything will line up perfectly, but I have had rifles cross my bench where, when the basic swap of parts was done, things simply didn't line up or something else entirely (for instance, the set triggers not reliably tripping the new lock) cropped up. If you have mechanical and particularly gun repair experience, most likely you can recognize and fix issues like this. If you don't, you may find yourself in possession of over $200 in replacement parts and a rifle that is unshootable for one reason or another. Pedersoli has made several versions of this basic Pennsylvania model over several decades, and there have been changes to them over the years, so it should NEVER be assumed that you'll have a cut-and-dried "remove this, install that, go shoot" experience in modifying one of these guns. Pedersoli has always built their Pennsylvanias with swaps from flint to percussion (or vice-versa) in mind, and in fact Dixie sells "conversion kits" consisting of a lock and either percussion drum and nipple or vent liner, for just this purpose, but both Pedersoli and Dixie stress the need for the work to be performed by someone familiar with the process and able to remedy problems that arise -- in their words, a gunsmith. I believe any competent metalworker is capable of doing this work, but be aware that it may very well be more than just a simple swapping-out of parts.

Depending on what you could reasonably get for your existing gun, selling it, added to the slightly more than $200 for a lock and vent liner, PLUS the time, labor, and potential problems involved, you might be able to justify just selling the gun and buying a flintlock ready to go.

[punjab]

I most emphatically endorse that last paragraph of Mike's!