New persona

[William]

What would I be wearing just after the AWI, say around 1780?  I will be carrying an early Virginia transitional rifle in North Carolina and have served in that state's militia during the war as a spy.  

[mongrel]

Others can tell you better about the proper clothes, but so far as the rifle goes -- the American long rifle was just coming out of its "transitional" period at the beginning of the Revolution, so rifles of transitional styling would probably have been the most common type seen. A fully-evolved American rifle that showed its Germanic heritage without actually being of distinctly Germanic styling would have been a relatively new firearm.

Something to bear in mind concerning the Revolution -- though there were doubtless gunsmiths who focused on the production of rifles throughout the conflict, for a period prior to and during the beginning of the war the "Committees Of Safety" that dictated much that went on among the rebel factions of the various Colonies strongly discouraged the building of rifles, feeling that the war effort would be better-served by muskets, which could be made a lot more quickly and cheaply and were far better-suited for warfare as it was fought in those days. This situation changed when Washington realized that there was a need for riflemen in the Continental Army, and consequently a need for rifles to be built, but even when the semi-official ban on the production of rifles was lifted it is likely that gunsmiths still concentrated on the production of muskets. For what it's worth, I imagine this would also have held true of those gunsmiths whose sympathies were with the Loyalists -- the need for military weaponry would have been just as great on the other side of the fence.

What this means, of course, is that a large percentage of rifles put to use during the war were older ones, not new manufacture, and consequently were even more likely to have been of more-or-less transitional styling.

I hope you all were taking notes, this will be on the quiz....

[William]

Great information, and I'm writing my notes on a really small piece of easily concealable paper so I can, uh, "assist" my memory during the quiz.  LOL!

I am contemplating developing this new persona based on my 6th great grandfather's service as a spy for the NC militia during the AWI, but maybe I should focus on the time leading up to then, say 1760-1770 or so.  I've found that there are many times the number of sutlers and merchants that make clothing and gear that would have been seen during that time versus when my first persona was roaming around Texas in the 1830's.

[mongrel]

Great information, and I'm writing my notes on a really small piece of easily concealable paper so I can, uh, "assist" my memory during the quiz.   LOL!

I am contemplating developing this new persona based on my 6th great grandfather's service as a spy for the NC militia during the AWI, but maybe I should focus on the time leading up to then, say 1760-1770 or so.  I've found that there are many times the number of sutlers and merchants that make clothing and gear that would have been seen during that time versus when my first persona was roaming around Texas in the 1830's.

I wish that would change. I say that, of course, being fully aware that the sutlers provide what they have a call for, so if there's a lack of stuff for the period between the end of the fur trade and the start of the Civil War it's because relatively few people are interested. Too bad. Between the revolution in Texas, the Mexican War, the Gold Rush, incessant conflict with Indians, and the rumble of the wagon trains across this continent, there was a lot going on roughly 1835-1860. Too many people seem to think all the excitement involved longhunters and mountain men and that once the fur trade ended a great calm spread over the land, in which folk settled, took up farming or tending store in some flyspeck town, and died of boredom or overwork.

I know that when I started seriously peddling my rugrat and adult trade rifles, mostly percussion and mostly 19th century in overall style, I briefly entertained the idea of an 1840's gun trader persona, not because I need a persona to complete my enjoyment of this pasttime but because some venues require period dress and if I'm going to go that route both my over-dramatic tendencies and love of history mean that I'm going to take it the whole nine yards. However, I think I'm echoing your own conclusions when I say that the prices and availability of suitable clothing and footwear caused me to ditch the whole personification bit, in the 1840's context anyway. I ordered logo'd t-shirts from a local outlet for signs, banners, and other forms of advertising, and "on the job" selling my guns at an event I look like what I am, a low-rent 21st century businessman.

Anyway, there were transitional rifles not just in common usage but being built, right up to the start of the Revolution, so you'll be good to go in that regard.

[William]

I wish that would change as well.  It took me several years to get to the point I am at with my early Texas/1830's outfit as to get the correct style in clothing, everything had to be made by hand.  If it wasn't for wonderful people such as Lady Bulldog and Sara Stevens of Just Sara I wouldn't have been able to get this far.  With this new persona I will at least be able to buy patterns relatively easy although I don't want to torture Lady Bulldog any more than I already have in altering everything into tall sizes.

So, the ancestor I am portraying was married around 1770, lived in NC in the shadow if Shepard's mountain where he was a farmer and part-time lumberjack before joining the NC militia as a spy during the AWI and carries an early Virgina transitional rifle.   I find that mocs are much easier to come by due to my 4-E wide feet, so I'm thinking that either side seam or pucker toe are going to be my choices.  I'm going to hope that trousers will be an option as well but if not then I will find some breeches, along with an appropriate linen shirt and Weskit.  Am I on the right track or do I need to modify my choices so far?

[mongrel]

I did a fair amount of research into trousers/breeches when trying to outfit a kid who was obsessive in regard to details and also fashion. He not only wanted late-18th-century gear that was correct, he wanted it to reflect his modern tendency to care about his appearance. Too bad he didn't stick with this -- he would have been a little bit of a fop but I think he would have been a credit to other young folk involved in our pasttime.

Anyhow, I could be completely wrong on all this and will accept polite correction if such is so, but my impression is that trousers in America were a late 1780's fashion at the earliest, that originated with the more radical French revolutionaries as they embarked on their psychotically bloody struggle against the oppression of the upper classes. To make the point that they were NOT of the upper class they took to wearing trousers rather than breeches, resulting in them being referred to as sans-culottes ("without breeches"), and believing them to be the heirs of our own Revolutionary spirit (which sadly they were) folk here made a fashion of long pants rather than breeches.

However, trousers are a garment that go back pretty much to the dawn of recorded history; my Celtic ancestors were wearing wildly-colored trousers long before the birth of Christ. Did that style persist even during the breeches-wearing phase of men covering their legs? I don't know. My own 1760's persona wore trousers, ragged down at the cuffs, and was accepted at the events I participated in -- but none were juried and I seriously doubt anyone else present was aware of the precise time period I was personifying.

That leads to another point, which is that when it comes to shirts, mocs, and hats (unlike britches and actual shoes/boots), styles stayed pretty much the same for the common man over a long, long period of time. Fancier, more fashionable shirts changed -- that's fashion, after all -- but the basic common man's upper-body wear for the most part either didn't or changed very gradually. This is my impression, anyhow. As I said, experts on the subject are more than welcome to offer more complete or correct information.

One point that I think is very relevant to this topic is that of social status and occupation. Was your ancestor a well-to-do man? Poor? Did his spying involve extensive woodsrunning or was he a sort of townsman or other "civilized" character who did his spying while blending into gatherings that just happened to be of Loyalists and English? The reason I suggest that that's important is, one thing I've come across in several quotations of primary documentation (and it's alluded to in J. Hector St. John de Crevecoeur's "Letters From An American Farmer / Sketches Of 18th Century America", in which this Revolutionary-era Loyalist has a number of unkind things to say about woodesmen, hunters, borderers, frontiersmen, call them what you will) is that borderers (as I prefer to refer to them) quite often were worse-dressed than enslaved field hands -- not only dirty to look at, but ragged, and it is specifically mentioned that instead of proper breeches and stockings they wore what might once have been breeches that now ended raggedly below the knees. Basically these guys looked (and probably in a lot of cases were) rode hard and put away wet. Their priorities in life didn't have much to do with giving a rat's posterier who liked or didn't like the way they looked. If that look fits your persona then I'd say an inexpensive pair of trousers that fit properly in the waist and basically hacked off below the knees for easy movement in the woods would do the trick. Who'd be to say they weren't proper britches that were just way, way the worse for wear?

That about exhausts all I know about clothing of that period. Whether any of it's useful or not, there you are, and welcome to it.

[dfoster]

My suggestion would be to do as Mongrel says as far as looking at the social status of your new personna.

Breeches were more common during the time, but trousers were worn. For the time stated, fall front would have been the norm in either. One "cheat" if you were to use the trousers you have until such a time as you decide if you want to invest in breeches, would be to wear Eastern leggings over them. Unless you take them off, who would know.

A common shirt would be appropriate unless very well to do, ie ruffles on the days you want to look pretty. 
For North Carolina during the period, mocs would likely have been center seam, not side seam. Pucker toed would be ok, small vamp.

For a hat, can't beat a good ole flop hat.

Waistcoat would be the shorter style, just below the hip. If you choose to get a sleeved waistcoat, no coat would be needed. In place of a coat, the rifleman's frock you're wearing in your avatar would suffice.

Hope this helps William. I'd be more than happy to assist with more if I can

[William]

Thanks for all the info and suggestions, I appreciate it very much.  The riflemans frock that I'm wearing in the picture is made of a light canvas and has been dyed with ground walnut hulls.  Lady Bulldog made it for me some years back and it's very soft and fits me perfectly, but it's not the warmest piece of clothing.  That may not matter if I'm wearing a wool shirt underneath or when it's warm here in Texas.  My good friend, Stormrider just made me a deal on a rifleman's frock from Jas. Townsend & Son.  It's made of heavy canvas and it quite warm but is stark white and wouldn't be good to wear while trying to hide from game or enemy soldier.  I most likely will dye it too, although I may just use RIT this time, we'll see.  While I'm on that subject, what would be an appropriate color for the frock?  Walnut brown is always a good standby but I'm thinking that maybe dark green would look good, if it's period correct.  At any rate it is supposed to cover up your regular clothes as well as keep you warm and I may just let it age naturally with good old dirt alone.  My ancestor and his brother were wealthy enough to afford to come to America in the 1760's or so and we know that before then that the family was involved in the Border wars in Scottland.  They were not Highlanders though.  Apparently both he and his brother made enough money working or brought the money with them to buy enough land to farm or possibly he bought land with enough timber on it to cut down and sell.  Perhaps that is why he is associated with being a tree cutter.  The term lumberjack had not yet entered the Lexicon. He was married in 1770 or so we think as his marriage bond was pledged to the king and this had to be before 1776.  I don't believe either brother ever became a man of means but was part of a growing middle class that owned some land but not vast tracts.  His brother Edward sold his farm in NC and moved to Georgia after the AWI.  He was scalped and killed in 1793 in Franklin Co., GA. too far across the GA/SC line.  His property was near the Toolgaloo River.

So for now I think I will get a natural linen shirt, common for the time, trousers, Eastern leggings, center seam mocs and a waistcoat.  Both the linen shirt and wool overshirt will come from Bethlehem Trading Post; http://www.bethlehemtradingpost.com/clothing-on-line-sales.php.  I've already got two rifleman's frocks and a pair of trousers from Sara Stevens but may go for breeches at a later date.  I need to find somewhere that I can buy a flop hat from, any suggestions?  Also, can anyone post a drawing or picture of an appropriate waistcoat for 1780 or where to find one ready made?

[dfoster]

Since you mentioned Townsend....

Waistcoat - http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17&products_id=482
Sleeved waistcoat - http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17&products_id=482

And for a flop hat, cut the brim of a hat blank from 3-6" out from the  crown. http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17&products_id=482

Wheather you buy from Townsend or not, I hope the visuals help.

[William]

The visuals help a great deal.  Unfortunately they fall short of having the right sleeve length for me and stop at 35 inches.  That is one of the problems with the wool overshirt that I just received from Bethlehem Trading post, the sleeves are nearly 4 inches too short even though it will fit a size 54 chest.  It's warm though, so maybe I can wear a small pair of leggings on my forearms to cover that shortcoming up. LOL; I crack myself up sometimes....

Anyway, thanks for the reference and maybe I will get a regular waistcoat from them.

[Red Badger]

Remember Bulldog Lady is always willing to help you out with custom made clothing..... 

[William]

Remember Bulldog Lady is always willing to help you out with custom made clothing..... 

I just don't know if I can keep torturing her like that, having to modify every pattern into a big & tall size. She has done a bang-up job for me in the past though.

[Bulldog lady]

I know and have seen  you in person so that makes a big difference!!  Help you anyway I can, you always get good material and hate to mess it up!  Hope  you understand.  Will have to check some of sites you have recommend for patterns or styles.  Again this time frame seems varied so much in what persona you portray,  Never was a history buff so rely on yours and Mongrel and others wisdom,  You seem to be able to find and change persona's - I still am trying to find one that fits me?  to many wana be's that aren't suited for women much less aging  ones   

[William]

Di you're wonderful and everything you've ever made me is wonderful too.