Middlesex Double Barrel Flinter

[mikeoosting]

I'm a refugee here from muzzleloadingforum.com - where, when I even mentioned the words "Middlesex Village Trading Company", I was greeted by cries of "it's JUNK, it's GARBAGE".

Since very few people seemed to be willing to actually explain what made it junk, I came here. One individual who actually owned the gun told me this, though:

• The locks on it aren't any good at all and either need to be tuned or, as he did, replaced with Manton locks by L&R
• The gun is a bit on the heavy side
• The gun doesn't have any problems with the barrel and patterns "just as well as any other cylinder" smoothbore
• The varnish on the stock is spray on and the wood is cheaper softwood
• The barrel and locks aren't traditionally browned

I want to use this gun as a fowling gun; predominantly for grouse, partridge and pheasant. I've never owned a gun before, though, I try to get out with my brother and bag a deer every year or so with my bow. Since I don't have a class 1 hunting permit (which, here in Ontario, lets you hunt with all legal firearms and methods) but only a class 2 (which is good for bows, crossbows and flintlocks ONLY), getting something other than a flintlock would involve me taking another several month long safety course which I don't want to do.

I've got my heart set on a double barrel. If it's not this, I'm going to be getting the parts for a Joe Manton Double Fowler from The Rifle Shoppe, two barrels from the Colerain Barrel Co., and having a gent down in Utah assemble it all for a total cost in the range of $2000-$2500. Yeah, you can see why I'm interested in this option from MVTCo.

I'm not particularly concerned about the aesthetics and if I want to have the gun browned and re-varnished, I can do that. I'm more concerned about the locks - anyone on here used one of these guns?

Is there anyone on here that has tuned up these guns before? (If so, you've most likely got my business provided the price is right) What kind of work do these guns need to be in decent condition?

Are the locks worth simply having tuned up or should I pay the $256 for a set of locks from L&R? Apparently they don't quite fit the gun, I suppose another option then would be getting the Gun Makers (that is, unshaped) Siler locks from Jim Chambers (http://www.flintlocks.com/locks6.htm) and having a some shape them and install them.

[Renegade]

Mike
Glad to see ya made it over here. Another place you can get these India flintlock smoothbores is Earl Kathum He not only sells them he is a traditional gun smith. for an extra $50.00 on the guns he sells he will tune the lock , harden the frizzen and drill out the touch hole for you. He tuned the lock on my Pedersoli Jaeger flintlock and it's now as fast as my percussion locks . Earl does outstanding work and he came highly recommended from the track of the wolf. here is his web site:  flintlockrepair.com
 Hope this helps.
 Dan

[Red Badger]

I have some friends who have played with middlesex guns and they seem to think they are alright.... you might do some searching on this site for some of the reports on them... I know they have been mentioned a time or two....

I have never shot one (although I did get to hold one) and yes to me it felt heavy, but them it was a double barreld flintlock so I was expecting it to be heavy

[old salt]

I have one of the Middlesex double barrel finters
The wood is teak and yes they are heavy
As I understand they are all hand made except the barrels
As for the locks one of them is a good as any I have played with. the other took some very serious work to get it to work right.
I had to do a little tweeking on one of the triggers.
If I did not have friend that is a very good gun smith living close I am not sure that I would buy another. Between the two  of us we can adjust or make most of the tigger or lock parts.

[mikeoosting]

Another place you can get these India flintlock smoothbores is Earl Kathum He not only sells them he is a traditional gun smith. for an extra $50.00 on the guns he sells he will tune the lock , harden the frizzen and drill out the touch hole for you. He tuned the lock on my Pedersoli Jaeger flintlock and it's now as fast as my percussion locks . Earl does outstanding work and he came highly recommended from the track of the wolf.

This sounds great - I think if I were to contact him or any other traditional gunsmith I would simply buy the kit form of the Chambers lock and have Earl cut it to size and install it. Depends what issues I would have with the locks, it seems to vary from gun to gun.

The wood is teak and yes they are heavy

Haha, always good to see that I was blatantly lied to by several people claiming it was "poor quality south asian softwood". Teak is definitely hardwood.

As I understand they are all hand made except the barrels

Interesting, but, do you have any problems with the barrels?

As for the locks one of them is a good as any I have played with. the other took some very serious work to get it to work right.

Everyone seems to have differing experiences with the locks on these guns, to the point where there was a difference between the two locks on your one gun! What exactly was wrong with the second lock?

I had to do a little tweeking on one of the triggers. If I did not have friend that is a very good gun smith living close I am not sure that I would buy another. Between the two of us we can adjust or make most of the tigger or lock parts.

I've got my heart set on a double barrel and the only other option would cost me just under $3000, so, this could be pretty good. If I need to send it to a gunsmith it would still be well worth my while, besides, I'm most likely going to get it from someone who bought it and hates it for maybe half the price.

[Baldy]

Mike- I saw the hassle you got over on MLF.  There are a few there who are rather intolerant of anyone who questions them.  You won't find that here.  You may also consider a single barrel fowler.  Great for PRB on deer and with the right loads makes an awesome squirrel and rabbit gun.  Most times with a double I would down the bird with the first shot.  Then you are faced with loading the barrel next to another loaded and primed barrel so rather than blowing out the prime and putting on the hammer stall, you would just continue hunting until you fired the 2nd barrel.  Then you would go through the process of loading both barrels.  I found it easier just to use a single barrel gun.  But there is a lot of class to a double.  You only go around once -- might as well enjoy the trip.

[beowulf]

have a middlesex village bess . good gun ,came with the barrel in the white which is pc .  the lock on mine is pretty darned good and the trigger works fine , very nice trigger pull for a military musket ! the extra weight is due to the density of the wood used for the stocks ( walnut does`nt grow in india !)  quite happy with mine , and cant say anything bad about it other than it is heavy , which has the advantage of absorbing recoil ! as for lock problems , I`ve had bad locks on several guns , cva , and traditions for example , and trigger problems on a few higher priced guns , all fixable with a little patience . a double does present problems of it`s own , no surprise that one lock would be off a bit , likely something simple . dont give up on it ! and dont let the knowitalls on the other forum get to you ! remember , they really dont know it all , just think they do !

[mikeoosting]

Mike- I saw the hassle you got over on MLF.  There are a few there who are rather intolerant of anyone who questions them.  You won't find that here.

Good to hear, that was a bit ridiculous.

You may also consider a single barrel fowler.  Great for PRB on deer and with the right loads makes an awesome squirrel and rabbit gun.  Most times with a double I would down the bird with the first shot.  Then you are faced with loading the barrel next to another loaded and primed barrel so rather than blowing out the prime and putting on the hammer stall, you would just continue hunting until you fired the 2nd barrel.  Then you would go through the process of loading both barrels.  I found it easier just to use a single barrel gun.  But there is a lot of class to a double.  You only go around once -- might as well enjoy the trip.

People have been saying this but if all I need to fix on this gun from Middlesex is the locks, I can get a decent quality double barrel for the same price as a decent quality single barrel. Hell, even the kits from Pedersoli cost more than I'd pay for this.

Still, you make a good point and I will consider it.

[old salt]

I have not had any problem with barrels, other than they were not the 62 cal that I ordered, they are some where between .590 and .600.
I do not over charge them. I have added a rear site and use it as a buck and ball gun.
The main problem I had with the right hand lock was that it took a team mules to pull the trigger. That was corrected with some filing and changing the sear spring. The original sear spring was stiffer than some main springs I have come across

[mikeoosting]

I have not had any problem with barrels, other than they were not the 62 cal that I ordered, they are some where between .590 and .600.

The user on the other forum classified it as a "19 gauge", instead of the normal 20 gauge.

The main problem I had with the right hand lock was that it took a team mules to pull the trigger. That was corrected with some filing and changing the sear spring. The original sear spring was stiffer than some main springs I have come across

That sounds like an inexpensive fix, which is good.

[Red Badger]

"Mike- I saw the hassle you got over on MLF.  There are a few there who are rather intolerant of anyone who questions them.  You won't find that here" 

And if you do I would like to know anout it ASAP!  We do ave a few rules and the #1 rule is:  "There is no such thing as a stupid question"... followed by rule # 2: "the only stupid question is the one not asked"...  and #3: We are here to learn from each other not to impose our will on everyone else....

Of course I change the rules whenever I want   

[Hawken50]

Of course I change the rules whenever I want   
Aye that he does matey,that he does.
Seriously though he is right no  one will judge here and if they do we have an attack pup.

[mikeoosting]

This is good to hear! I will let everyone know how I make out.

[old salt]

Well the attack pup will first try to be diplomatic, if that dos not work. Then the stuff will hit the fan.
The junk yard dog on the other hand is more appt to just bite and then bark

[Renegade]

Mike, I told you that you would like it here.  There's a  great group of  people here.