Made in Japan !

[gordy]

     "Made in Japan' I,m seeking information on those guns mfg. in Japan , and imported to the U.S. durring the peak of the muzzleloading resurgence . I,ve posted this request on my home board (TMA) in an attempt to see what ml guns might deserve the "Jap  junk" lable and what facts support this assumption. 
       I know that for many years after WW2 Americans in general were not too receptive to the "made in Japan" lable , so there were many folks who just assumed that if Unc. Joe or cousin Bob said that any ml guns imported from there was unsafe and junk. This was what they based their opinion on , and passed it on as fact. 
       What I,m seeking is "documented" instances of breech plug and/or barrel failures ? I would also like to hear from anyone who has owned and or shot any of these guns. What was your evaluation of performance and general overall impressions? There dosn,t seem to be much but the hearsay information circulating amongest ml buffs?
If we could gather to the point accurate infomation on what ones to avoid , and those that would be safe and serviceble entry level guns for those of us who can,t swing more costly options. I know that DGW sold/sells some "poor boy" rifles in both flint and percussion made by Moruko and I have one in .32. Windwalker_au had /has one. overall its a close copy of the orig. I also understand the Brown Bess they made is sought after and brings good prices on the aucttion sites .
       Any information about other Co.s that made and imported them to the U.S. would be great.     THANKS ! 

[flintboomer]

Ultra Hi was junk!
I had a flintlock Hawken, the barrel and stock were ok but the wood began to shrink noticably in a very short time and eventually there was quite a bit of buttplate hanging down below the wood. They didn't know how to fit anything up correctly and the lock looked ok but was just junk. I replaced all the springs in the lock and it worked a little better, but only a little bit better. I could usually get 2 shots off and sometimes 3 but after that the frizzen wouldn't flip out of the way of the little bit of spark, so getting it to go off was about a 20% thing.
After fighting with it for about 15 years I finally gave it to a drifter friend when he was passing through, but warned him that the lock was junk.
There were other brands that were well made.

[Capn D]

I have owned and fired several of these, many times.

Before 1976 there were two common brands (Miroku and Hi-?) but as the bicentennial approached, lots were made without any names on them.  Groups formed everywhere for parades and honor guards.  Dixie Gun Works did indeed sell both Brown Bess Muskets marked "Tower," (and spare locks marked the same) and a "Tower Pistol" of lesser quality.  Most of these had no maker names and went under "Dixie." DGW also sold kits to make both guns.  Some of the re-enactors in our group used the Japanese Tower Besses.  One friend still has one.  They were all readily spottable because the bottom of the trigger guard was flatter than it should have been and the conventional wisdom of the day was that "when the prototype was sent over to be copied, it was dropped and the trigger guard was deformed.  So they were all copied that way."

Another interesting feature of the Japanese Besses is that the barrel is really thin at the muzzle like a 19th century shotgun barrel tends to be.  Based on originals I've seen up close, this is more close to the original than the thicker and probably safer barrel used by Pedersoli etc.  I never saw a problem with a Japanese Bess barrel even though some of the guys tended to use huge powder charges in them at reenactments.  The locks were not as durable as those on the Pedersoli muskets sold then.  And I had to change out people's mainsprings as well as in one case an entire lock when the plate broke in half.

The pistols are a different matter.  Some were made with horrible inner lock works.  Others were not. Some locks looked great outside, well fitted and correctly setup but underneath they looked like a 1st grader made them of melted tin cans.  Nothing on these ever seemed to be heat treated.   Some had screwed in breech plugs and some were just pressed in and pinned. Most were marked JAPAN on the left side of the breech.  But more folks than not sanded this away.  Some bore various proof marks and some had none.   All the locks had a really short lifespan and I was always searching for lock parts or rebuilding old ones.  I have one friend who still has one which works.  It was defarbed and I have no idea who made it.  It has survived 20 years of occasional use with few repairs.  I have another friend who has bought three of them broken off gunbroker and had yet to get enough decent lock parts to fix one for shooting.  I never saw a barrel split or explode.  The frizzens on the pistols are made of something really soft.  I suspect maleable iron because I have seen them bend as much as 30 degrees to their proper position and in order to shoot these one was constantly hardening with Kasenit.  I recently gave my buddy with the three broken pistols a bag of spares I had collected in the 80's.  Hopefully he can get something to work.  At least all the ones he has have screwed in breech plugs.  I certainly would stick with really small powder charges or use these for display.  Pirate reenactors love them and they look large and impressive.

Best,
Capn D

[gordy]

      Flintboomer , CaptD . Thanks for the information. So far it seems that the Ultra Hi and some other generic "made in Japan" guns have inferior metal and components and will fail after a short time. At this time I havn,t found any reports of barrel or breech plug failure (possibly  because they quit functioning before that point) .  The guns produced by Miroku seem to be as good or better  then those from Spain or Italy.   The poor boy that I have seems to function and shoot well . The wood to metal fits have no gaps , and are as good as Pedasoli or Tradition guns.       
      Hope to hear from others who have hands-on experience with these guns.

[beowulf]

if this is the rifle you have , they are a very nicely made rifle . they came in .32 or .50 caliber , and flint or percussion . and if you wanted you could get a kit to make them convertible . I had one of the .50`s and to be honest wish I still had it .  overall it was a better rifle than my hatfield and at a much lower price !

[gordy]

          Well, its been a while and between the input here and on the TMA site it seems that there hasn,t been a rash of split barrels or blown breech plugs reported. Mostly poor design and improper tempering of lock parts. I,m still doing research to see if there were in fact, any, episodes of death or injury from the no-name guns from Japan.As I,ve said, I have the poorboy southern mtn. rifle by Miroku , and it has proven to be accurate and the metal to wood fit certainly is as good or better then the guns from Italy or Spain. I would not hesitae to buy any gun made by this company.
      A few weeks ago I purchased a "Harpers Ferry" smoothbore pistol off auctionarms (unfired) just to see how shoddy( no-name made in Japan )guns might be? I was surprised to find the inleting of the lock and furnature was as good or better then other off the shelf guns. After some tuning the lock and trigger works as well as my L&R locks. I doubt that it will last as long as the L&R but time will tell. I,m not putting anything resembling heavy loads through it, and doubt that I,ll push the limits, but its a fun gun to play with and the price wasn,t bad.  Thanks to those who contributed solid input information and will be watching for more.

                                                     

[snuffy]

Funny how things work out! I just joined this forum because I'm interested in trying to "recondition" an old wall hanger into something suitable to shoot squirrels with.
Turns out it's an ultra hi, 45 cal, I .45 to .36 sabots (NJ law nothing bigger than .36 cal) After reading this (confirms my first impressions of this POS) I most likely will try and spend nothing on parts!!! Might pour my own nosecap but that's about it. I'm just having such a hard time with how expensive muzzle loaders have gotten! Wish I bought that .36 seneca way back in 81!!! I have built and shot BP since 1976 and look fwd to getting back into sidelocks and building them! What I am wondering about is accuracy? I did manage to get this thing shooting (wads only). I was hoping to use like 30 grains of FFFg behind a .350 ball in a plastic sabot (No flames please, IF I could afford a nice .32 caplock for this I'd already have it!)

[Dogshirt]

Many questions here. How is the bore? Is main spring in good shape? If the bore is pitted, you can polish it up
some with Scotchbrite or 4/O steel wool. Follow that up with JB bore paste or white toothpaste (I mix Bon Ami into it).
Ask any questions and someone here will have an answer. If it shoots and will put the ball where you aim, take'er huntin'!

[graybear]

I used to have an ultra-hi made by Miroku according to the stamp on the bbl.  The only functional problem I had was the base of the 2 pc. front siight was broken. I filed one out of half hard brass(beryllium copper) & swaged the triangular post in place. It shot best w/ffG & a 440 ball w/a .010 patch. Wish I still had it, but unemployment & a family said no. I've seen others not marked Mikoru that didn't have the bore drilled straight. Checking w/ the ramrod showed the bbl. was off-set about 1/2 way down. By the way, Mikoru makes guns for Browning as well as having made some for Winchester. They even turned out re-issues of classic Winchesters that were really nice.