Range report for Conicals

[pilgrim]

     Went shooting on Sunday.  Started with 425 grn maxi balls and switched to 380 grn REAL bullets with 85 grn 3f.  Should have used 2f but......  The real bullets need more range time.  Dont seem to shoot as accurate as the maxi balls.  But I will be shooting alot more before I decide.  The REAL bullet virtually drops down barrel, where the maxi must be driven the first 6 inches then easy to seat.  William was right about shooting all day.  after 40 shots I had to call it a day.  My shoulder was beat up bad.  Still a little sore but look forward to next time.  The rifle barrel needs to be seasoned in and so does my shoulder.  Also where  I shoot the taget gets secured  to a 1/2" rubber conveyor belt mat and then there is the earthen backstop.  The roundballs never penetrate completely  through the rubber mat.  But the maxi ball cuts through as if mat  were made out of soft butter and kicks up dirt from the earthen bank backstop  Have yet to find any bullets in dirt. 

[Red Badger]

check your REAL's  they should be hard to start and then ease up a bit... they engrave the lands into the bullit when you start them down the tube.  If they "drop right down" then they are not getting the proper engraving and might be the wrong diameter for your tube

[Dogshirt]

What he said!

[flintboomer]

The loose fit could be the reason for the drop in accuracy. Are you sure the REALs are the right size? They should engrave at the muzzle, not drop in. "R ifling E ngraved A t L oading". The front band should at least touch the bottom of the grooves just like the Maxis.

[William]

Yep, conicals do out-penetrate RB but seldom are deer clad in thick rubber conveyor belts-
But enough of my silliness, my point is to second Red Badger's comment, if the REAL bullets are just dropping down the bore then you aren't going to get any kind of decent accuracy, or velocity for that matter.  You may want to measure the bore of your rifle to see what diameter of conicals will need to be used.  Another thing that can affect the diameter of bullets in general is how much and what type of impurities are in the lead used to cast them, as tin and/or antimony will affect the contraction of the metal when it hardens and cools.  What starts out the correct diameter in the mold at 650+ degrees can change as it cools to room temperature.  Mic the REAL bullets too if you get a chance.  Have you tried adding a lubed caliber sized wad to see if it tightens up your groups yet?

[pilgrim]

     Thanks to all for your help and advice. 
   I should have stated it clearer, I used a comparison.  The real bullets dont really drop in, but DO NOT fit as tight as the maxi ball.  I will have to check diameter of real bullet to see why they seem to load so easy.  Will also have to check bore diameter.  Did slug barrel with a REAL bullet.  There are rifling cuts on bullet.   I have not used any wads with real bullet, not yet anyway.  That will be next.    The lead I used  came from purchase on ebay, supposedly 99.9% pure.   The new batch of cast bullets, still unused, came from plumbers lead pipe. 
     Did some esearch into the bullets used in the civil war etc.  The next experiment in conicals will be the Minnie Ball.  Seems  that during the civil war they used 58 cal minnies with 40-60 grn black powder and had a max accurate range of 500 yards in a rifled barrel.   But I suspect the rifling may have been 1 in 48"     But that experiment is a long way off.  First I must  find correct load etc for Maxi and REAL bullets.    Keeps me occupied, as if I didnt have enough to do. 

[VEARL]

Pilgram,

I shoot the 250 gr. LEE REAL BULLET in one of my 50 cal. rifles.
I could push start the bullet into the bore ( but thumb is not strong enough) , soi use my short starter to get it a short way down the barrel. After that, it is easy to follow thru with my ram rod.
I recovered one bulet and noticed the rifling marks on it. Not real deeply engraved, but enough to impart the required spin.
Do use a lubed felt patch over powder, then load lubed bullet. Brought my shot group down a lot.
I shoot 80 Gr. of 3f  Bp in my lil' rifle.
Keep us posted on your progress.

[William]

     Thanks to all for your help and advice. 
   I should have stated it clearer, I used a comparison.  The real bullets don't really drop in, but DO NOT fit as tight as the maxi ball.  I will have to check diameter of real bullet to see why they seem to load so easy.  Will also have to check bore diameter.  Did slug barrel with a REAL bullet.  There are rifling cuts on bullet.   I have not used any wads with real bullet, not yet anyway.  That will be next.    The lead I used came from purchase on eBay, supposedly 99.9% pure.  The new batch of cast bullets, still unused, came from plumbers lead pipe. 
    Did some research into the bullets used in the civil war etc.  The next experiment in conicals will be the Minnie Ball.  Seems that during the civil war they used 58 cal Minnie's with 40-60 grn black powder and had a max accurate range of 500 yards in a rifled barrel.   But I suspect the rifling may have been 1 in 48"     But that experiment is a long way off.  First I must  find correct load etc for Maxi and REAL bullets.    Keeps me occupied, as if I didnt have enough to do. 

Looking forward to your next report.  On my 50 caliber fast twist barrel that had to cut a bulge out of I had the muzzle cut at a slight angle and polished so it centers the conical very nicely, I'll have to post a pic of that so you can see what I'm referring to.

[flintboomer]

I had one rifle with a loose bore and deep rifling that would not work with the REAL or the maxi, but the others that I have used them in worked fine with them. Both styles should drop in the muzzle without difficulty on the first band, tighten up in the middle band(s) and engrave to about the bottom of the rifling on the front band. If they are made from soft lead as they should be they will upset into the rifling somewhat either when you seat the bullet or when fired (actually a little when seated and more when fired.).
The Maxi has more lead at the bands, so it should start a little harder, but only a little harder.

The Minie is accurate in some rifles, but remember that maximum range is not the same as accuracy. Some of their claims at accuracy were in comparison to smoothbores at similar ranges. Part of the accuracy of the minie is also from the shuttlecock effect since a lot of civil war muskets had twist rates that were more suited to patched ball.

[pilgrim]

    Thanks VEARL, William and Flintboomer for input.   I checked the difference between the 300 grn and the 380 grn REAL bullet,by slipping into barrel or Lyman GPH and CVA ,  the 300 grn seems a little larger in diameter.  I will need to get a caliper to check the bullets.  Tried different castings of each. 300 gn real fits tighter, sooner. Last week, I contacted Lyman and asked what  conical suited the 1 in 32 GPH.  They said to use same as in modern muzzleloader.  NO WAY.  Not in this flintlock. 
     William, the  CVA 54 cal has a line around circumference of barrel, about 3/4" in.  When i load patched  roundball, all it takes is thumb pressure to get ball flush with bore. Then starter and ramrod.  Is this sort of what you mean?   The REAl and maxi bullets all go in a short distance before engaging rifling. Sort of lines up the bullet so it cant be cocked on an angle.   Just that the 380 grn seems smaller in diameter, atleast to the 3rd ring.  Thats when it hits rifling.  I will keep you posted after next shooting session this weekend.   Thanks again to all for your help and input.

[Dogshirt]

   Thanks VEARL, William and Flintboomer for input.   I checked the difference between the 300 grn and the 380 grn REAL bullet,by slipping into barrel or Lyman GPH and CVA ,  the 300 grn seems a little larger in diameter.  I will need to get a caliper to check the bullets.  Tried different castings of each. 300 gn real fits tighter, sooner. Last week, I contacted Lyman and asked what  conical suited the 1 in 32 GPH.  They said to use same as in modern muzzleloader.  NO WAY.  Not in this flintlock.  
    William, the  CVA 54 cal has a line around circumference of barrel, about 3/4" in.  When i load patched  roundball, all it takes is thumb pressure to get ball flush with bore. Then starter and ramrod.  Is this sort of what you mean?   The REAl and maxi bullets all go in a short distance before engaging rifling. Sort of lines up the bullet so it cant be cocked on an angle.   Just that the 380 grn seems smaller in diameter, atleast to the 3rd ring.  Thats when it hits rifling.  I will keep you posted after next shooting session this weekend.   Thanks again to all for your help and input.

Sounds like someone has coned your barrel. Been reading about this the last couple days. Some like it, others don't.
I'll see if I can find a link.

[Dogshirt]

Here is a link to explain what may have been done to your barrel.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.0

[William]

William, the  CVA 54 cal has a line around circumference of barrel, about 3/4" in.  When i load patched  roundball, all it takes is thumb pressure to get ball flush with bore. Then starter and ramrod.  Is this sort of what you mean?   The REAl and maxi bullets all go in a short distance before engaging rifling. Sort of lines up the bullet so it cant be cocked on an angle.   Just that the 380 grn seems smaller in diameter, atleast to the 3rd ring.  Thats when it hits rifling.  I will keep you posted after next shooting session this weekend.   Thanks again to all for your help and input.
[/quote]
It does sound like your barrel has been coned, so that is a good thing.  If the REAL bullets start tight then go in fairly easy the rest of the way, as long as they do not fall out or come off your powder charge when you tilt the barrel downwards then you will be allright, same with the maxi's.

Here's what I had done to my GPH 50 cal barrel;

[pilgrim]

     Thanks Dogshirt and William.