Is this dangerous?

[ChrisHarris]

I have a Green Mountain .54 x 15/16 barrel on my TC Hawken stock.  Twist is 1:70.  Shoots round balls great.

I need an elk gun.  I live in Colorado, so I'm kinda 'obligated' to try it with a BP rifle.  I was thinking about buying a fast twist rifle and shooting heavy lead.  No, not one of them new inbred thingys.... a traditional percussion rifle with a big bore and a fast twist.  Thats what we talk about here, right?      But then I read some theory on the internet ...<so it must be true>  .... about shooting big conicals out of a slow twist barrel. 

The theory was to use a really heavy bullet because a larger object that is set to motion .... tends to stay in motion. So even a slow twist rate, if the projectile is heavy enough, will induce enough twist to stabilize the projectile over a long distance.  When I say long distance, I'm talking about 150--175 yards.

I've got a slow twist barrel.  I can buy heavy conicals.

But then my brain kicked in (my wife calls if my 'lizard brain') and I thought maybe it's not a good idea to use a 475-550gr conical with 100gr of 2F in a 15/16 barrel.  Now my brain is saying.. ' when in doubt .... don't '.  Green Mountain says you can use 120gr of 2F in this barrel.  I've done it........ONCE.... and it hurt like heck.  But it's a 1:70 twist barrel and I'm sure it was meant to shoot a 220-223gr round ball.  Increasing the weight of the projectile by 120% is going to create some additional pressure in the barrel.

Do you think it's safe?  How about with a smaller powder charge?  Would you patch it?

Or would you 

[William]

Well, in a nutshell, no, it's not dangerous but it will kick like a mule and then some plus you probably won't get decent accuracy out of a barrel with rifling, no matter what the twist rate, that was designed for a patched round ball.  You owe it to the animal you are hunting a clean, quick and humane death; no two ways about it and if you can't place a bullet in the vital zone from a reasonable distance you shouldn't take the shot.  Now, I stated "bullet" and that's what the hunk of lead really is no matter what shape it's in, round or conical.  The .54 RB is a proven game getter and again, within reasonable distance is all you need for elk.

Do not attempt to patch a conical bullet!  In the event you don't get it fully seated on the powder charge or get it stuck halfway down the barrel, if you get it that far to begin with you've created far more problems for yourself.   Or were you referring to paper patching that conical?  Either way, I don't think you're going to get what you are after and IMHO you already have a suitable elk rifle.

[ChrisHarris]

I agree the .530 PRB is deadly.... to about 100-120yds ... for elk.

I'm looking for more downrange energy and want to stick to a traditional percussion rifle.  I like to experiment but I don't want to blow my face or hands off. 

[Papa]

Chris,
You already have the most medicine that you will need, if you can get within reasonable range and place the ball where it needs to be. I think you will find the .54 with a round ball and an upper end load will do everything you want.
Mark

[pilgrim]

     you might want to try this load combo,  powder, then 28 ga card followed by a 28 guage  fiber wad (1/2" thick)   topped with a   lubed Maxi bullet.  BUT not in a 1/70 twist.  Better to use this in a 1/48 or 1/32 etc.    The 1/70 is meant for patched round ball.   The 54 roundball should have no problem dispatching an Elk

     Flintboomer as well as others here,have taken Elk,  I am sure he/they could give sound advise  that has given  the best results. 

[mongrel]

In addition to being much slower than is optimal for accurate shooting of most conicals, another, often-overlooked potential problem with the slow roundball twists is that the rifling is cut considerably deeper than on factory rifles with 1-48" or faster twist. This is definitely the case with the Green Mountain barrels. You're liable to find loading to be harder and if it isn't you're liable to find accuracy suffering.

There isn't a safety issue. Lyman builds the fast-twist Great Plains Hunter exactly as they build the Great Plains Rifle, with 15/16" barrels in .54 caliber, and the Hunter model is a dedicated, purpose-built conical shooter. Several flavors of the Italian-made "Hawken" rifles had their 15/16" barrels punched out to .58 caliber (I've had two such barrels pass through my shop, and both are still in one piece in the rifles I built around them) with 1-48" twist, which is intended by the manufacturers as a compromise twist to give at least adequate accuracy with roundball or conicals.

Experimentation will be necessary. The fact is that no one here can say with certainty that any given combo of caliber, rifling, and load development will deliver the degree of accuracy, downrange power, and tolerable recoil that is necessary for effective longer-range killing of big game. I've spoken to you at some length on the phone and know that your shooting isn't a matter of flinging lead in the general direction of the animal and hoping for the best, so I'm not worried that you'd settle for less than optimum accuracy simply to attain more power. The odds are against the deep-cut slow-twist rifling of your barrel properly stabilizing the bigger conicals, but muzzleloaders are notorious for proving themselves exceptions to the rules of conventional wisdom, so experimenting with this idea is definitely worthwhile. As stated, safety won't be an issue.

[huntinguy]

Seems to me that GM used to make a 54 fast twist barrel... 1:28 rings a bell. I thought about one for my 54 for a long time. Just didn't do it. You might call them and see if they have any left.

To be honest though. I don't think there is an Elk in town that will walk away from a well placed ball from a 54.

The thing to realize is that soft lead ball does not just punch a hole. It does magic.

[flintboomer]

If you are willing to use a 135 gr load it might work. Yes, I have done it, but it WILL HURT. and you may not be able to reload without wiping the bore first.

TC's Maxis used to come in 2-3 different weights and if you can find and use the lightest weight bullet it will be easier to get it to stabilize than the heaviest weights.

FYI I usually hunt with an old TC Renegade with the standard 1/48 twist that will not stabilize a patched ball but works fine with the Maxi and have killed many elk with 80-90 gr. and the standard Maxi.

PM me.

[smr40cal.]

 A .54 cal. Round Ball for Elk is all you need, you place that Big Round ball in the lungs, heart and he's going down.

[flintboomer]

As a recent experiment I took a .50 and a .54 to the range for testing, both have slow twist rifling of about 1 in 70 and both happen to be old Sharon barrels. I used 90 gr 777 and a slug in both. In the .50 I used a standard 370 gr Maxi made and lubed by TC and in the .54 I used a 450 gr slug that I bought on line but it closely equates to the 430 gr TC Maxi.
Recoil was stout in the .50 and "punishing" in the .54 due partly to the crescent buttplate of the TC "Hawken" stock.
I didn't think to bring the 54 target home but accuracy was acceptable at 50 to 100 yards.
If it works I will attach a scan of the 50 caliber 75 yard target with its 2 inch group at 75 yards.

My conclusion is that acceptable accuracy is possible with deep rifling and a slow twist that is more correct for shooting patched ball but you will not enjoy the testing process.

[Red Badger]

As a recent experiment ...

My conclusion is that acceptable accuracy is possible with deep rifling and a slow twist that is more correct for shooting patched ball but you will not enjoy the testing process.

We appreciate the punishment you subjected yourself too in the name of science.....     

Thaks for all you do !

[flintboomer]

If it works, this is the 50 yd target shot with the Sharon .54 and a maxi pushed by 90 gr 777.
I do not guarantee that it would still be stable at 100+ yds but the bullet hole is clean with no tipping at 50 yards. Your results may be different.

Did you hunt with a patched ball or did you use the Maxi and how did you do on the elk hunt?