Trigger pulls and lock work

[mongrel]

This actually almost ought to be put in the "Rant And Rave" category. The topic is something that has been a source of irritation to me for almost as long as I've been building and working on these guns. However, I think it'll catch more eyes here in "General Gunsmithing" and it most certainly IS a gunsmithing-related subject.

A friend this afternoon called and explained that the new-to-them pistol she'd acquired for her grandson would, after two shots, no longer stay at half-cock. Being as how she lives in Friendship, six miles away, I made a house call. This led to me coming back home to the shop and replacing the tumbler in the lock (a CVA, for which I have multiple spare parts), then returning the gun, so that she and the kid could head back out to the NMLRA range after supper and continue punching holes in paper.

The source of my irritation is that this was built as a target pistol, by a pistol-line shooter who is now deceased. The degree of my irritation is such that, when the lady mentioned that the prior owner of the pistol was dead, I muttered, "Good." I envisioned an accidental discharge that had blown a hole in the culprit's leg, and him bleeding out via the femoral artery, and thought 'twould be nothing short of poetic justice. Harsh on my part, yes. TOO harsh, actually, yes, I know. But I have a very low tolerance for fools with guns.

Bear in mind that, as I said, this is a CVA lock we're considering. Their top-end models aren't high-end mechanisms by any means. They're good, solid little locks that in the percussion versions are every bit as effective as Silers and other premium examples at popping caps. However....

The previous owner of this gun had modified the lock innards, and I know why. There is a screw at the rear of the tumbler that can be adjusted to lighten or increase the weight of the trigger pull, but on many of these locks if the screw is turned in too far -- to lighten the pull -- it interferes with the metal around the pivot hole of the sear, preventing the lock from cycling smoothly. This isn't an issue for anyone who understands that the pull weights of single triggers really aren't supposed to be measured in ounces. However (and this isn't guesswork on my part, I've been told exactly this by more than a few competition target shooters and have seen more than a few examples of their handiwork -- as on this pistol), a pull that measures in pounds, even only a couple of pounds, is apparently far too heavy for some shooters. And, so -- they take to grinding until they get the pull desired.

Unfortunately, their sole objective is that under-a-pound trigger pull, with minor details like safety being of no consequence.

On this particular lock, since the adjustment screw did start rubbing the front edge of the sear before a pull weight of ounces had been achieved, the owner had done the logical thing: He had ground the full-cock notch till at the lowest, lightest point the adjustment screw could be set to, the sear nose barely engaged. Basically the lock would trip if you breathed on the trigger.

I sense folks out there nodding in approval, but the alteration of the full-cock notch meant that, when the sear nose released from full-cock, it hadn't been lowered far enough by trigger pressure to clear the half-cock notch. Note to fools with Dremel tools and stones and other grinding implements -- tumblers are designed with a specific geometry and if you alter that geometry, guess what, either the lock ceases to work correctly or it tries to work and breaks.

Not to be defeated by mere reality, the alter-er of this lock simply ground the half-cock notch till the sear nose WOULD clear. It seems to have worked -- for awhile. It worked for two shots, in the hands of the new owner -- a kid, let me remind you. A kid. Someone with a bright future ahead of him who, at least in my opinion, would be much more missed if a tragedy occurred than any derned fool playing gunsmith to things he obviously doesn't understand.

On the third loading the lock ceased to hold at half-cock, and only the fact that it failed BEFORE he'd been able to cap the gun prevented an almost certain accidental discharge. This particular CVA lock has a stronger-than-normal mainspring and I have absolutely zero doubt that from the half-cock position it would fall with force enough to bust a cap.

Oh, and I didn't mention -- the genius who'd modified the tumbler had also ground the sear spring to about half its original width, meaning the sear was BARELY under spring tension. To achieve a lighter trigger pull, of course.

If you're offended by my tone, good. Anyone who works over a middlin'-grade lock like a CVA to achieve a half-pound trigger pull, instead of using a premium lock with a fly in the tumbler and a single-set trigger, is a (insert unprintable term of your choice). This isn't about anyone having the right to modify his own property as he sees fit. THIS GUN WAS UNSAFE. Obviously this fact and the fact that we all do die and our guns will likely pass to new owners, somewhere down the line, mattered not at all to the previous owner. He achieved his several-ounce trigger pull using an inexpensive lock and without having to pay for the services of a gunsmith who knew what the @#$%! he was doing.

That's my point, actually. I understand having specific needs for a specific gun to fill. I understand that some of us consider an actual trigger squeeze to be an abomination. What I don't understand and refuse to accept is anyone butchering a lock or any other part of a gun, in the process rendering the gun unsafe, because the fool lacks either the knowledge or the honesty to admit he has no idea what he's doing.

This same butchery has been done to the locks on two different guns I've built, and I've seen it in the locks of guns brought to me for repair. I accept no excuses for this sort of thing. Know what you're doing or leave it alone!

[Red Badger]

Remember "Common Sense isn't...." 

Very well written and important information!  Thanks for pointing this out Mike... You may have saved a life or two with this!

[flintboomer]

I like a fairly light trigger pull, but Mike is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

I use set triggers and if I hand a rifle to someone to try a shot with the first thing I do is show them how to test the triggers safely so it does not go off before they are ready. Single triggers have to be dealt with differently and safety is always important in either case.

[Hawken50]

   Mike you got it right.What ever  happened to People learning marksmanship as in trigger squease, trigger control. In working on single action pistols you would be amazed at the butcher jobs ive seen on trigger \sear engagement.t is my firm belief that the DREMEL tool is the most dangerous thing a gun owner can own......

[gunmaker]

Well said Mike,  A very important topic.  Anyone affronted by this has never seen a gunshot wound.  There's NO call back in shooting, "sorry"  just won't cut it.  Leave those locks alone !! Change the tgr pivot point if possible to lighten up pull, don't touch a lock unless your trained by a master.  ....Tom   who's seen way too many wounds.

[Dogshirt]

I've used stones on CVA and Traditions locks for years. But I ONLY use hand/bench stones, no power. And I only remove the burs and rough spots that seem to be in all of them, NEVER change the geometry of the thing. It's amazing how much just polishing the parts
will help the trigger pull, AND lock speed.

[Hawken50]

    Mike this post belongs right here.As a matter of fact i've stickied it so it stays at the top.This is very improtant.

[Otter]

I AGREE!

Having seen the same methodology used on Trapdoor Springfields and other such weaponry and then had them used next to me in a competetion. At least until the shooter was reomoved from the line for firing before the fire command. Then that fool tired to sell the modified rifle to another shooter as an unaltered weapon! Ok that is my rant.

Good post.

[beowulf]

you hit the nail on the head !  if you dont know what you are doing heave it alone ! I`ve torn apart locks on old pre cva spanish guns and poiished the internals but never change the geometry ! there`s a reason it`s built that way ! had one of the cheap spanish smooth bores you could buy through the national rifleman for $27 , had a trigger pull so hard you had to use two fingers and it was still rough ! little polish brought it down to about 5 lbs ! was`nt great but was a lot nicer ! I could live with it ! no sense in risking your own or someone else`s life !

[mongrel]

Aside from people being so single-minded that they become oblivious to safety concerns and basic common sense -- I think what most infuriates me is that EVERY SINGLE TIME I see this sort of thing, it's been done to a CVA lock or something similar. On the two guns of mine that were modified by the owners, one had an old Dixie Italian lock, the other a CVA. The guns were ordered, built, and sold as starter rifles for kids under ten years old. I was working really, really cheap back then (about five years ago), just wanting to see if my "rugrat rifle" concept would fly and trying to make a few bucks to keep eating -- neither rifle cost more than $250, shipped. Yet, in both cases, the first thing the fathers of the new owners did was declare the trigger pulls unsuitable for serious competition, and out came the grinding equipment. In both cases, also, the guns were returned to me after the modifications had been done, because the locks had ceased to cycle correctly and every gun I build carries with it an ironclad guarantee against mechanical failure.

Henceforth it will be specifically stated that owner attempts to modify the mechanicals will void the warranty. Fool with it at your own risk, fix what you screw up at your own expense. If a CVA or similar lock won't get the job done for you, pay for better.

I don't think I'm being extreme in my point of view or opening a political/social can of worms to say that what goes on in cases like this is a symptom of much that is wrong in our country today. People seem to not only want but EXPECT something -- everything -- for nothing or next to it. They plead lack of money and a sense of entitlement. "I just want a good gun or a better car or a bigger house...." You get what you pay for, and if you have half a lick of good sense you either pay what's asked for the good stuff or you restrict yourself to paying for what you can afford -- and accept it on its own terms.

A better-than-good gun can be built around a CVA lock and barrel -- whether it's a bone-stock CVA as it came from the factory or a restocked semi-custom like a lot of my less-expensive rifles. For the average person, such a gun is all that will ever be needed. If more or better is called for, yes, by all means explore whether or not the CVA level of quality can be improved-upon to provide what's needed, but be honest about the answers you get by researching the question and for God's sake err on the side of caution. And if, as in the cases I'm using as examples, you can't realistically expect what you have to be what you want -- or you just don't know one way or another -- leave it alone. A competition-grade trigger pull isn't worth the embarressment of an accidental discharge downrange, let alone the unthinkable.

[Dogshirt]

Ignorance is a lack of education/information. This can be remedied, HOPEFULY before it's too late. STUPID is irreparable and is a fatal condition!

[mongrel]

If it weren't for the fact that innocent, unsuspecting persons often get hurt or killed as a result of someone else's stupidity, I would almost give God a special thanks for blessing us with the dimwitted. The annual nominations for the Darwin Awards are really quite entertaining, and if that were all there was to stupidity having a fatal outcome I'd say give 'em scissors and tell 'em it's okay to run. Unfortunately that's NOT all there is to it.

Ah well, the best we can do is try to educate, keep harping on safety, and hope we save a few lives and limbs -- and that in the process we don't actually degrade the gene pool by keeping the fools able to contribute to it.

[Dogshirt]

Unfortunately we can't have it both ways.

[pathfinder]

Been in this silly game better than 35 years, have built over 50 guns, WILL NOT mess with the innerd's of a lock! I send them to those who know! VERY cheap money to spend!

[Darkhorse]

I know this is an old post but may I add something to the discussion?
Some/all/many of the imported production locks out there only have tumblers that are case hardened. Meaning if one does much stoning on the notches then you are stoning off the heat treated metal. Soon the metal that remains will begin to crumble and one day when you cock your rifle you'll get an "Accidental Discharge". If everybody is lucky the rifle will be pointing in a safe direction. It doesn't get any better after your tumbler reaches this stage, only worse.
Years ago I was mentored by a now/sometimes, retired lock maker of national repute. One of the first things he told me was anyone who took stones to a tumbler to lower the trigger pull doesn't understand what makes a lock tick. There are better ways of doing things.