So this is something that has been on my mind as a question ever since I have begun pondering this sport of muzzleloading, and I am curious to see what thoughts the rest of you guys have in regards to it....so bear with me. ;D
When I visit various sites or go to a rendezvous as a tourist, a couple of things have always struck me...everything looks "old" which in itself isn't a bad thing for "authenticity" purposes, everything looks like it is 200 plus years old. Rifles, horns, cookware, tents and clothing, everything is hard worn, and aged to look like it came out of an antique or curio shop. I guess my question is this then, everything being proudly displayed that looks old was once new. It was new in 1790, or 1800, or 1810, or 1830, or whenever, and if that is the time period being portrayed, shouldn't some of the stuff there look as if it was just made? Not trying to step on anyone's toes here, and there are some awesome craftsmen that make things that look good to a 21st century eye, but if the year really were 1810, and you had a period correct powder horn that looked like it was 200 years old, well then that would mean that the horn you were carrying was made in 1610 right? I can understand things looking like they have been used, and used hard, but rendezvous were places where new things were being brought in by traders to resupply folks. So how do you strive to look authentic without looking like a walking talking breathing antique? I am going to my first rondy as a participant in less than a month, and I have made a ton of my own gear for it, and it's not really broken in yet, I have been taking hikes in the forest preserve wearing my moccs just to break them in, gaaaaah, I feel like I am rambling....
I'm not gonna worry about my stuff looking new when I go I think, because in time it will get broken in, and used, as long as the clothing is cut correctly it should be fine. I'm not gonna worry about browning my axehead, as it is shiny, it too will dull on its own, my leather will age as it is exposed to rain, and greased to keep it dry, and my cookpots will also brown as they are exposed to fire......
I guess I answered my own question, I'll simply get some new/old stuff that will age with me in my travels......but I don't think I'm gonna spend the time hunting down antiques unless I am using them as a model to make something "new" that through use will eventually look "old" right? Just curious to other people's take on this....
There would be some old and some new. Some of the gear would old because you took grand dad's
or uncle Joe's or whom ever, some would be new because Mon and Grandma would not have it any
other way
Just the way I see it.
Hrayton, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I've been chastised in this very forum because the leather stuff I made looked "machine made" and "too new". That I ought to take it out and sort of destroy it. Well that ain't gonna happen. ;D I don't have any issue with folks that want to wear the beat up, worn out, ready for the trash heap, stuff but that's not my thing. :)
My feelings on it are an item starts out well made and new, then let it age with use over time. I don't purposely abuse something to make it age, but I don't baby it either.
Hrayton,i think you are on the right path. the best thing to age somthing is time.
[hmm] What I think truly counts Trout, is the effort, all things will age (including us :qz:) I think your effort just to keep period correct will be appreciated, and like most things, if your new to the genre as were newbees to the mountain or woods back then (greenhorns, tinhorns whatever ya want ta call em) of course there gear would mostly be new, some handed down, some traded for, but after they earned there names or stripes or what have you, so would their gear. Your trying to keep it real and I applaud you for it. dntn personally I like to keep things as new looking as possible, as I'm sure they did then, hence such well cared for rifles surviving to this day, I also think that is one of the reasons we are so passionate about this affectation, we object to this disposable society and it's lack of ties to anything and pride of ownership.
Bear in mind, things back then were made to last. I have a 150 year old shotgun that works as well today as the day it was made. If you bought something, you generally expected the grandchildren to be using it. If you got something to Rendezvous, it spent months or more on the trail, exposed to weather & hard use. It would not take long to start to look old. Given these conditions, most everything either looked, or was, old...
Just sayin'...
I would have to agree, some things, Items of clothing perhaps, as a traveler, would or could have a worn look, lived in so to say. Other things can have a newish look as if just obtained at a voo, or trade. If an item was new in 1810 and you are portraying that period it shouldnt look like it is two hundred years old, unless you are of course 200 years old and got it new in 1610..........
I believe that pride in ownership was as prevalent then as it is now... When I get a new tool or item of gear I tend to try and keep it looking it's best, except for normal wear and tear... Now my clothing I tend to really wear and with sanitary standards what they were then - the only way to wash clothing was in the nearest stream and so the rocks and scrubbing took it's own toll on clothing... so it should look beat up unless you are portraying an important personage in history and member of the gentry... then you would have the fine silks and linens that were starched and very carefully tended to...
Luckily I do not portray that type of "Gentlemen".... I am rough and tumble and my clothing should look it. But I do have a linen shirt in the works and it will be kept as nice and clean as I can in my travels, as I will only wear it for special occasions... the Wedding of a neighbor or the occasional town party... I think you get the idea...
[hmm] Exactly,clothing especially,would have looked rough after just a week.They didnt shower every morning,go to the closet and pick out one outfit out of 20.Their clothes were worn and slept in fer weeks.Equipment was taken care of because their life depended on it.Look at how many old cap and ball colts are out there still doing what they were ment to do.Ive seen"antiqued"repop sixshooters that looked worse than a battlefied relic.But thats the fun of all this,whether mountain man or civil war reenactor,or cowboy action,its a do it your own way thing.Personalize everything,its what makes everyones plunder unique.
My gear gets beat up and old looking fast enough on its own from regular use. I dont see any reason to say either way is more correct than another. As long as it is of the style and type that would have been in use at the time you are covering then it is up to you to say if you want it to look freshly made or if you want it to be looking like its been serving you well for a might bit.
Voy
I use my regalia very often, specially huntin and it gets fouled up fast, mud, blood, greaze, dog spit, beer, whizkey, soot, lotsa smoke both black powder smoke and wood smoke from fires, but since I am a wanderin ndn boy livin off the land trappin and tradin that works. A farmer would be more soiled from those types of labor and of course a townie would be soild from a days toiling at his trade.
I'm kinda thinkin anyone who made clothes in the old days, expected them to be used, but take pride in the finished product, when they were new. Materials could or would be hard to come by and use used them as best you could. Just my two cents worth.
Its been my estimation that the folks back then would have done the same we do now. They would have taken care of their gear to the best of their ability. They would have kept their guns, traps, and other gear as clean and in good working order as possible. You wouldn't let a brand new tool get rusty and old lookin in your mundane life so why would you let your rendevous equipment get mucked up. Of course you have normal wear and tear on everything but let it be normal wear and tear and cared for use, not abuse. This inludes clothing of course. Just my 2 cents if it makes any difference.
Back then most stuff would be new just like today when something is acquired. In 1795, for instance, a rifle and/or accoutrements wouldn't look 200 or even 50 years old in all probability.
Interesting thread fellas, it made me think...(insert headache smilie here)
I have to agree with most everyone here..
Honest use .. a new piece or two with some WELL used pieces would seem likely.
Seems to me folks woulda probably been proud as heck over a new rifle, or shirt or... an took real good care of it.
I think it looks better for an item to have a natural age look to it..
If your a fur trapper 200 year ago, and your at a voo you will have traded your furs for new things (guns,bags,hats) and theyed be new. your at a voo everything is new, you dont trade old furs for old trade goods. If the 30/06 came out in 1820 the mountain men would have gotten one because it better then there flit lock, and if there was cell phones they have them too. man trys to have the newest and the best. just my 2 cents
Being a bit OCD, anyway, I take as good care of my guns as possible. A minor scratch can cost me a nights sleep. Thus I like my guns to look as new as I can keep them with the exception of allowing the brass & GS to tarnish. Otherwise, how someone else's gun looks is pretty irrelevant to me as this is a personal decision and I respect such.
I don't mind at all FW&T honestly acquired from genuine use. I have CF (short & long) guns that have seen extensive use over decades that look new or nearly so. My wife calls it "attention to detail" - though she still says it's OCD and that I am getting better - and assigns me tasks where extreme attention is demanded. [hmm]
Take care of your things n they will last for years, neglect em n ya might as well throw your money in the fire.
Voy
Ok I'm l'm playin the devils advocate here.One of my personas is a French trapper post Rev war.My long arm is a 1717 Infantry musket sent from France to help out near the end of the war.It's now 60 years after the war and the gun(now over a hundred years old) has been in battle,sold off as surplus,toted to the west,through all sorts of weather and dust ups with the property owners,been the center of attention during long artistic winter nights as a canvas(prettying her up,you know).
Now in the bore and all her internals are well oiled and clean,But this gun represents 60 years of hard use.
Quote from: markinmi on July 28, 2010, 03:45:01 PM
Ok I'm l'm playin the devils advocate here.One of my personas is a French trapper post Rev war.My long arm is a 1717 Infantry musket sent from France to help out near the end of the war.It's now 60 years after the war and the gun(now over a hundred years old) has been in battle,sold off as surplus,toted to the west,through all sorts of weather and dust ups with the property owners,been the center of attention during long artistic winter nights as a canvas(prettying her up,you know).
Now in the bore and all her internals are well oiled and clean,But this gun represents 60 years of hard use.
Again all well and good... your musket has a history of that time frame and is not brand new... I think what we are saying is that some of our gear should look brand new and some should show the use it has been through. My Tennessee rifle has some nicks and gouges it has acquired though my travels but "Patience" is still new so she shines... maybe in 25 years or so when I get ready to hang up the Vous she will look like the aged lady she will be but until then i will keep her as pretty as I can....
I "stressed" the French musket(Did a little stressing on the Ketland Fowler from them too ) as that was my purpose when I bought it from Middlesex Village as I viewed it as a kit and something I could fool around with.Now my LLP Bess was a well made repop that I really had to sacrifice to get and that one ain't gettin beat on or beaded or tacked,It's taken on a natural patina and Ive shuddered any time it's fallen over or bumped against a tree (susp)
New Look vs. Old Look: I'll have to ask my wife ;)
I try to keep all my firearms and gear in good, like new condition. It's impossible cause I am clumsy and accident prone. If it is at all possable, it will happen to me. I am the king of impossible, freak accidents. So it don't take long for my gear to look well used. However, I somehow manage to keep gear forever. I prefer well used looking gear but don't hesitate to get new items cause they will not look that way for long. Your gear will take on a used look even in storage....brass and copper oxidize, steel will rust or age, bone will yellow and I will not even mention what beetles will do to horn. I got one little priming horn that must be as old as I am.....must have 20+ repaired holes in it. I just repaired about 6 this last weekend. It would be easier to make a new one but I just am too attached to that old one. I say, let it age naturally!
I figure it should look well used , if`n your portraying a man whos been in the mountains for a while . not beat all to hell ,or worn out , but used and well cared for ! military weapons ,unless they were bought as surplus and carried into the hills should be well cared for and the barrels should be bright . now if an indian or mountain mans been using a bess or other musket for a few years then the metal should be darker , depends on who or what you are ! just my opinion ! oh yeah ,and there`s nothing wrong with a knife with a stained or dark blade , dont take long for a carbon steel blade to darken up , cutting up taters or onions will do it rather quickly !
I think I'd have to agree with the majority here . The look most of us are seeking falls in-between the "pin-up pilgrim" to the "slob". I think the majority of the firearms would have the look of USED but not ABUSED . The same with knives and bilt axes and tommhawks . the knife blades would be dark and blotchy from many hours of use cutting and skinning , basically the same for the axes and hawks . Shooting /possibles bags could run from "well" used to brand "new" . As for clothing , it too would be a combination .
The one thjing I noticed (and liked) about this board iwas the lack of "expert" making comments to "newbies" About their gear not being proper to the "experts " taste . I was raised durring the last years of the depression and seldom got anew item (store bought) I thought getting my older brothes was great . It seems that there was alwas one pants knee that got a hole wore in it , my mother used to always neatly patch both legs so it looked to be a intended idea . I'm certain that "neat" patches were common 200 years ago . Most all the mothers took pride in their needle work . I'm pretty sure that the Native Amerycan wives took pride in theeir skills also .
I have hanging in the rack the first shotgun I bought new 60 years ago . It has many nicks and bruises but overall is in great shape and I'm sure that one of the grand kids will carry , and use it as I have . For the most part I hiink that there would have been more older model weapons being used then the "experts" try to lead us to believe !
A little common sense would show that flwa [hmm]
Looking in the copy's of Trading post manifests and ledgers in Mark Bakers Sons of a Trackless Forrest it is clear the Long hunters bought new clothing, accoutrement and lead and powder on a fairly regular basis.
Trading forts were built further west following the hunters.
The Hunting Frock being one of the more expensive items.
Followed buy shirts, breeches, Moccasins, etc...
Plus large amounts of Rum and Wine for some of the hunters. chrrs
No listing for Flintlocks but that would be acquired from a Gunsmith?! hntr
Hunters in the river traveling groups were resupplying on a 3 week to monthly basis.
And the amount of supplies and the various items available is amazing!
The best Long hunters were Wealthy by the standard of the day.
Making more money in a fall-winter than a Good farmer could manage in a year.
and many of the Long hunters farmed in the off season spring summer to add to their fortune.
(Or to buy all the supplies they would need for the next Long Hunt and for their Family to live on till they returned in the spring) thmbsup
By the Way markinmi I think your 1717 Infantry musket is Beautiful!
It has a timeless look that would work right up to the 1830s for some persona's!
And is far less common than a Bess or trade gun.
Thanks I really do take good care of the guns. They get oiled at least once a month wheather they've been used or not.
I kinda agree with you friend, especially since making or buying stuff that is correct for the period is not near as cheap as we would like. My rifle has a few scratches and is on its second barrel now. It still will clean up good and some of the brass furniture will actually shine. I still don't have enough regalia to be complete as many do. Some of it looks bad from use, but not abuse. I am proud for you that you are equipped so, don't worry age gets to us all. Man I would like a trade musket can't afford to buy one so let us find out "on the cheap" how to build one. Turkey season here in Florida now does not allow muzzleloading rifles to be used so I will have to adapt! You just go to that rondy with your new and correct stuff and have a big old time! If ya see a smoothbore barrel blank report on the price!
I think some old, some new mixed is the way to go. somethings might need to be aged a bit just for the fact that we don't do this every day and it can take a long time for some items to age properly for the look you want. Clothes always usually start off new but they age quickly.
I have seen this discussion many times.
The real problem is that some of you guys are simply not going to enough events! If you are out in the woods or around the campfire 15-20 weekends a year your gear will age, and when it wears out and you replace it you will never even think about the fact that it is new.
I have been doing reenactments for much of my life and some of my gear dates back to the Civil war centenial in the 60s. A lot of my camp gear is left over from the bicentenial and most of my firearms are older than some of the adults posting here.
Like me, they look old. Oddly, the gear looks better cared for than I do.
My pard and I have this argument all the time (as if we need a topic of conversation over a bottle of Bulleit). He maintains, "they had new stuff at some point". I agree, however, the impression I'm working on is a true Hivernant - someone who's seen the elephant and spent some time trekking. Most of my stuff got that way by using it and I'm too cheap to destroy my goods, but I've been known to patina my stuff in such a way to give it an interesting look. After years of re-enacting mountain man, Civil War and cowboy, I notice which folks get the attention and it ain't always the shavetails with pretty, shiny goods.
I guess it's like the old saying..."It's all in the eye of the beholder" ;D
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l264/dasfritz/zzaBaa-1.jpg)
Haw!!!! ROFL
It is vital to avoid used ball and used powder and this does not help a persona noway. If you use "used" ball it needs to be melted back down then I guess it would be acceptable. Used powder is not even PC/HC [hmm]. Used chewing tobacco is okay; my granddaddy would chew his tobacco twice and then smoke it. :qz:
Wow, back to this again? Cool! I think I asked this question prior to actually heading out on my first one a couple years ago. I think I setled on the answer someone gave me there..."Clean enough to be healthy, and dirty enough to be happy." Weapons and survival gear used but not abused, and I think the rest would be as new as could be afforded, depending on the persona, shirts, pants, etc. What prompted the original question was that everything that seemed to be for sale already looked like it had been through the F&I War, The Revolutionary War, The Lewis and Clark Expedition, there and back, and finally the War of 1812, before it was put up on ebay, and I think I was worried about thread counters too, with their overabundance of opinion and "common sense". A 1750's persona, carrying a 1750's musket, that looked 200 years old already for example......oh well, decided to do my own thing and feel good about it. A lot of these folks here helped as well, and that summer got me into a lifestyle that I really enjoy now. THANKS TMC!!!
i just spent the coldest winter in 20 yrs wading in icy streams and lakes setting traps, skinnin my catch,
scrapin and packin hides. i fought bear and cougar to keep my cach, slept cold with no fire for a week in indian country gittin to this rondy and ifn your stuff ain't brand spankn new and pertyer than a speckled puppy we ain't tradin NUFF SAID
I had a friend that was a real stickler for keeping his gear pretty and he always looked like he had just bought is kit and walked out of Walmart. There are some folks that are going to look "farby" in anything they wear.
We also have differences in the folks here that "do rondys" and the ones that go to juried events. Chrome tanned leather is a status symbol at one place and not even allowed at another.
Personally, I try not to use more than one "new" piece in any outfit, except for my dressup clothes. You can always tell a dedicated reenactor because his best clothes belong in the 18th century. I paid more for my pants, shirt shoes and weskit than I did for the suit I wore to my son's wedding!
Even in civilization most people looked well worn as they went about their business.
By law masters were only required to provide apprentaces with one new pair of pants and two shirts each year. Runaway reward postings normally discribe the clothing worn by those sought and the clothing was usually well worn and hand-me-down. When the runaway had new clothing it was always a point of identification.
Town people and professionals turned their cuffs and hemmed and mended garmets untill they were useless. Women commonly recut dresses into different styles and "cut down" clothes to fit growing daughters.
On the farm, cloth had to be grown, spun, woven, cut and hand sewn into every garmet for every family member. That probably ment that new clothes were a special event, at least before factory cloth came available.
Even in my early years shoes were a once a year occurrance.
As far as camp equipment and accessories, it was all new once, but not for long! By the time most of my stuff has been through two or three camps it blends in nicely. That can be a problem, and take a while, if you anly camp once a year. If you do a dozen camps a year you will develop a normally used look.
One of the recent issues of Muzzleloader has an Native american on horse back holding a musket aloft.It looks pretty close to the one I posted in the pic earlier in this thread,The trade silver is on the opposite side of the stock and its loaded with beads as well.Hmmmm I guess great minds think alike chrrs
been making , hunting bags , holsters ,knives ,and other assorted items for the last 34 years . and if a person makes the request I will age the item ....to a point ! make it look a year or two old , I`ve been asked a few times to make an item look like an original and my question was , why ? one feller wanted to know if I could make a confederate d guard bowie . I told him sure no problem , then he wanted to know if I could make it look like a dug up relic ( thats when the bells started ringing ), told him I dont do fakes ! then checked him out , he`d been passing of reproductions as originals for quite some time !had also been arrested digging for relics on the gettysburg battlefield ! gotta be careful who you deal with ! and why would anyone want their equipment to actually look two hundred years old , it surely was`nt that old back then !
Since i'm brand new at this. My plan was to make my stuff, and how it looks is how it looks. It will get old naturally by me using it. That will be the fun part.
thmbsup Muley yas got the right idea to my way of thinkin.
dntn Exactly! I do that as well and would hazard a guess that most of us do.
thats the best way , how I do my own stuff ! I`m not going to worry till it starts lookin as old as I am ! ROFL
It was staed earlier in this thread but I think it bears repeating... When we go to Rendezvous we are stepping back in time and taking our equipment with us. It should look used but not antique. "Patience" has almost three years on her now and other than a nick or two looks like the lady is is, yes there is some wear on the ramrod from scraping the thimbels when I was in a hurry to get it back in place after a quick reload. The rest of my gear is in an as used state because I do use it every day. Our cast iron cookwear is used at the house for daily cooking so it has no rust etc... but the items I use only at events gets used when I set up the camp here just to make sure everything is still in one piece and ropes/ties have not been rotted or worn out. If they are the get replaced with new items that (in my persona) I traded my pelts for at Rendezvous so they should be almost pristine except for the shipping wear that they go tcomming up to the mountains from St. Louis.
My metal objects are crude because when I have to I can heat some metal and make replacements for some objects but I prefer to buy them from one of the smiths who send items up the trail or make items on the spot at rendezvous.
No one has ever critised me other than to tell me I am the original boy scout because I carry enough gear and spares to outfit several camps just in case..... pnic
I would think that Rendezvous Would be a time to put on the new, all your foofer-aw, and SHINE!
I'm quite sure it was not uncommon for MM to show up at the old vous with new stuff including a new rifle. They were probably quite proud of the handsome, new gun they just recently acquired.
yep dntn
I like the idea of it aging from use. Not a bad concept there.
whats the fellers name that sells aged bags,knives, and guns and calls them early uglies
?
Since I am new here I'll be brief. So....in my opinion forget the herd and do what you like while you still can.
thmbsup Watch out cuz. You are showing uncommon good sense there. ;D
cuch I do like to see these older threads re opened now and then -
I have no idea who "the fellers name that sells aged bags,knives, and guns and calls them early uglies" is..
quick search revealed this http://s93758715.onlinehome.us/eclg/
have to say I like his knives ! the pouches look like original 120 /150 year old originals ! bit too much aging there ! when I do a pouch or other leather piece I like to make it look used and well taken care of , not like an antique ! other than that his styling is period correct !
That's the guy Jack Hubbard, They did an article on him awhile back in Muzzleloader,on his aged look guns,I like em mtcw
With the fellow that makes the old uglies. I could see that being what a fellow would carry back then. Now sure at one time it would be fresh and new. But imagine going through the thickets after game and down to the creek for fish or water. Branches and weeds would be dragging on the fellow. He would have to be out in the field almost daily for food and water. I imagine a fella out walking or riding a horse would run into a lot of wear and tear doing his daily routine. I am also guessing that the steel items he carried would be his pride and joy. Thinking that everything would be protected as he'd likely have to be out in the elements for day to day life.