I have been wondering lately why the muzzleoader doesn't get more attention as a candidate for a survival type rifle. The guns made today are as rugged and accurate, out to 150 yards or so, as any common center fire rifle. You can easily make your own balls or even conicals with a mold. They are the most flexible gun on the market, each load can be tailored for the purpose. Light loads for grouse or rabbits, heavier loads for deer or moose.
For what a person would pay for an AR-15 and a thousand rounds of ammo you could set yourself up with a .32 and maybe a .54 and enough powder and scrap lead to last the rest of your life!
I suspect that muzzy shooters are already in the more relaxed attitude toward living and surviving an trouble that may come down the road. [hmm]
Much as I love my muzzleloaders, I prefer a Ruger 10-22 with hicap magazines. Have three with folding stocks and 10 50rnd mags each. 25,000 rnds stashed. Think I can last awhile.
I have to agree with Deaddawg.... for short term survival I like my modern rifles (massive firepower in massive amount), however for the long term I have Patience and her friends to put meat on the table and discourage the freeloaders and scavengers... I still belong to the "one shot one kill" club and unless there are a bunch of scavengers my trusty flinter will do me fine... to call a muzzleloader a survival weapon is stretching things in this day and age. Back in the day it was a survival weapon but in todays era of the AK, M-16, and other fully auto firearms we are at a distinct disadvantage if all we have are traditional muzzleloaders....
That all being said I think this is a topic that needs to be moved to the Open topics area.... because we are going to go far off the reservation on this one.....
When I said "survival" I meant hunting for food ect. I have shot just about everything from the 105 recoiless down to the pistol in the army and agree the .22 is overlooked as well but I sure like the muzzleloader still.
see what happens when I try to think pnic pnic
I think that a ML would be a good choice for survival if you were not concerned with having to fight large numbers of people. I also think it would be ok in a "end of the world as we know it" scenario. In that case modern manufacturing will cease, maybe forever. There is only so much modern ammo and reloading supplies. However you could shoot a flint lock almost indefietly with a decent supply of powder saved up. It is alot cheaper and easier to store than ammo. Also, some creative soul out there may even find a way to make it (NOT ME). No one is going to make modern componets. A ML would also be easier to repair and keep running. Just some thoughts.
While I don't think a flintlock would make a good all around choice as a survival gun, it's really not all that bad everything considered. If you're away from modern supply lines for a long, long time, it does make a lot of sense. In the Peter Benchley book "The Island", the modern day pirate/tribal cult leader would allow nothing to be used other than flint locks. This was due to the impossibility of getting of maintaining supplies of modern ammo.
Well, even if "it" doesn't happen, dollar devaluation assures that foreign maunfactured goods hold at least some worth until taxes eliminate the value.
hmm, seems to me that thid question has already been answered.
Our ancestors used these guns for survival, so its a been there done that and still can do it situation if you ask me.
Quote from: Jusbo49 on May 28, 2010
hmm, seems to me that thid question has already been answered.
Our ancestors used these guns for survival, so its a been there done that and still can do it situation if you ask me.
'SNTY"
Quote from: Jusbo49 on May 28, 2010
hmm, seems to me that thid question has already been answered.
Our ancestors used these guns for survival, so its a been there done that and still can do it situation if you ask me.
Curious, but none of my ancestors ever survived??? [hmm]
They have protected and provided for many a moon. They are the first guns and are still around--granted not in as high numbers as in say 1800, but they are still here. As long as the world is made of rocks, we can still shoot.
Voy
Oh boy am I in trouble here or what??!! I only own muzzleloaders and trad bows and have been this way for many,many years! If the bow doesn't put meat on the table my muzzleloaders will and do!! I hunt yotes with my smokepoles for a few extra bucks,bunnys,tree rats,deer and bear for food! always have several lbs of powder,lead and all the fixxins to last a long time in hard times on hand! I buy this stuff with moneys from trapping beaver or yotes! Muzzleloaders as a survival rifle? hell yea, lot of versatile in smokepoles! Just wouldn't be all that great in a gun fight against modern guns if needed, Now with a flinter I don't know I'm just learning about these, but the potenical for these is there! maybe even more so than cap locks as you could get flints from the land! I've been shooting cap locks since i was a kid and everyone I knew thought i was alittle wacko till i started bringing home deer as much as my brothers with there mod weapons! huh, what up with this?? yea man think they would make a great survival gun!!
I'm with yoteslayer on this one. I haven't havested a deer or bunny with a modern gun in many moons. I must admit, I keep an old 16ga double behind the bedroom door for home protection, but ol'snoop aint seen the woods in years.
Well, I'll have to admit that I haven't used a modern rifle in years to harvest game. And I've done quite well in the field.
I have not fired a modern rifle or hand gun in over 10 years.
Now if the balloon goes up the modern shooters that com for me will be at a disadvantage as I will not play by there rules. If they can get past the perimeter they still have to find me
A practitioner of unconventional war fare
Quote from: old salt on June 10, 2010
I have not fired a modern rifle or hand gun in over 10 years.
Now if the balloon goes up the modern shooters that com for me will be at a disadvantage as I will not play by there rules. If they can get past the perimeter they still have to find me
A practitioner of unconventional war fare
One shot, One kill, then displace, and they're my rocks and my woods
and several different types of booby traps!
If you think about it Muzzle loaders were the ultimate survival weapon from the 1300s to the 1880's or so! thmbsup
Not a bad record if that is taken into account! [hmm]
It Was also the Muzzle loaders that freed this Nation from the British and opened this nation up for exploration! flwa
hntr I would use anything i could git ahold of.The best survival tool is between the ears.By the way this thread starting to sound like a steve earle song.Learned a lot from charlie,huh,Old salt.
wtch well for starters, damn near everyone i meet has something to say on the subject! they will all be quick to jump saying ohhh you need an ak, ar, fal, g3, m1a, 870, m500, mini14, garand, model 336 30/30, etc etc etc! here is my take on it, and get ready because it will take you all to school, on the shortbus!!!!!!! okay shhhhh dont let anyone else know but ya'lll okay! shhhhhh quiet down and listen...... i know the secret answer, and you must listen to me on this, i am the exspert, and genious that is smarter then the rest telling you what to get in this situation, so ya ready for it......shhhhhhhhh BUY BOTH OF THEM AND SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! okay now that i have just destroyed your senses with the anticipation, you should buy both of them! yeah get that ak, ar, m1a, fal, whateverthehell 1000x61.2567967mm earginschplitennloudenboomer magnum heat seeking lazer guided uber badass rambo rifle/shotgun/grenadelauncher combo, with the depleated uranium high exsplosive pointed softpoints!!!! and then when your done with that, get yourself a good old flintlock, a smotthbore would be good, or better yet get two, one smoothbore, one rifled bore! same caliber to help with logistics! reason for one of each smoothe and rifeld?????? well the smoothe will be better at harvesting foul aka winged creatures for your dinner plate, and the rifled bore will be better for big game aka that big huge giant 3million point sabertoothed dino elk that you keep yammering about to all your hunting buddies!!!! if the shtf/teotwawki/wrol/etc etc etc happens have a modern cartridge gun for a better chance to get out of a tight spot! nothing says loving to a bunch of looting gangbanging, drug addicted, raping, looting, pilaging, marauding, hordes of inner city orcs/dregs/parasites than a millitary style autoloader with the biggest capacity magazine you can use! yeah i love my ak-47's because they are ruged, reliable, acurate enough to hit minute of badguy (not angle) out to 400 yards, cheap in cost, easy to use, etc etc etc! how ever if the excreament realy collides into the spinning occilating air flow device, i will want a flintlock! now heres the whys! 1. you can make your own powder! theres plenty of recipies to do it! and it aint rocket science neither! 2. you can make your own shot! lead is actualy quite available ifn ya know where to look! wheel weights, window weights in old houses, roof vent flashing, auto battery terminals, in the local fishing hole, in the ground at shooting ranges etc etc etc!!!! 3. unlike cartridge guns, or percussion cap guns, you need no primer or percussion cap to shoot it! you just need flint, or some other rock that sparks against steel to fire it! pyrite comes to mind as well! so in the future when all those rimfires aka .22lr/mag/hmr/mach2's etc and all the centerfires and percussion caps have all been used up, the only guns around will be the old flint lock rifles/pistols/shotguns!
as i was saying only flinters will remain! or even the old matchlocks! and a bunch of modern high tech firearms will be either clubs, or canabalized for spare parts! i can even imagine new designs poppping out using parts from modern guns to make muzzel loaders! hmmmmm a .308(7.62x51mm nato) m1a rifle barrel with a breech plug in it, filed, taped, and converted with a homespun flint lock, in a stock, with some crude trigger system, and its sights turned into some improvised junk yard muzzel loader! hmmmm the original .308 barrel will withstand more pressures than a black powder barrel, and then they could use .30 caliber slugs, or ball! might even use some .30 caliber jhp, or soft points! just the bullets mind you, not the casings, etc! think mad max, meets the postman!!!! anyways i hope you under stand what i am saying! just get them both, and live!!!!! if it realy does all fall apart we will be back to flinters, and bow n arrows anyways!!!!!!
Quote from: Bryan762 on July 14, 2010
i hope you under stand what i am saying! just get them both, and live!!!!! if it realy does all fall apart we will be back to flinters, and bow n arrows anyways!!!!!!
Amen to the above
I love my Muzzleloaders, but they are not good SHTF/TEOTWAWKI weapons. If we had a total meltdown to a like Mad Max type world and several years had passed then maybe they would be of some use.
The first couple of years you would want to have good offensive and defensive weapons, lots of firepower just in case you need it! I'm sure you will need it as everybody will want what you have and will not stop until they get it or they die trying. If the meltdown occures I would use my compound bows more then firearms to hunt with, my firearms would only be used in a defensive mode only (I Hope) I don't really want to go on the offensive unless it is needed.
After the dust settles and about 70% of the American population is dead, then I can see the Flintlock Muzzleloader coming of age again, by then there will be much less threats around!
I'm athinking when they come for the modern rifles and start collecting all the ones you had to register I'll still have my stash of the black powder ones I haven't had to register. And all that powder and lead I keep hoarding up will come in mighty handy. Like the man said one shot one kill, they'll be on my turf then. hntr
One shot, One kill...........but what if theres two or more? weather you like it or not using a muzzleloader to defend ones self against modern firearms is nothing more then a lesson in futility! It reminds me of the poster back in my youth with the Rat standing tall and giving the finger to the swooping eagle coming for him!
I feel it is better to go out fighting for freedom whether you have only one shot or 5000. It doesnt matter much what you have as long as you have heart and stand for what is right. If I take out 1 of them before they get me, we are even. If I get 2 of them then I am in the lead.
Granted, I would rather be there to see our victory, but if not then its the great spirits way.
Voy
Quote from: old salt on June 10, 2010
I have not fired a modern rifle or hand gun in over 10 years.
Now if the balloon goes up the modern shooters that come for me will be at a disadvantage as I will not play by there rules. If they can get past the perimeter they still have to find me
A practitioner of unconventional war fare
That one shot may well be just the bait of the trap, and to quote
Hawken50 "The best survival tool is between the ears."
This applies to all survival situations, wheather it is just getting caught in a bad storm or an end of the world scenario.
I really like the enthusiasm and passionate responses this question has evoked from the membership here, it is a thought provoking idea. However, this post appears in the Flintlock rifle section and has reference to modern firearms, which I don't think follows the original intent of this forum; Traditional Muzzle Loading on the Cheap.
My .02, your mileage may vary.
Quote from: William on July 19, 2010
I really like the enthusiasm and passionate responses this question has evoked from the membership here, it is a thought provoking idea. However, this post appears in the Flintlock rifle section and has reference to modern firearms, which I don't think follows the original intent of this forum; Traditional Muzzle Loading on the Cheap.
My .02, your mileage may vary.
Strictly speaking you are probably correct - however, the original post topic said nothing about modern firearms and we kinda drifted that way, I could move it to the open topics board if you all want....
That might be a good idea. That waya new person will not put some thing in the wrong area.
When I said flintlock as a survival weapon I pictured it as someone keeping coyotes away from the chickens and goats. Bagging the odd deer or moose ect.
alsask
I know what you are saying but some times a good topic get hyjacked and turned in to a monster, but on the other hand that is not always a bad thing as it pople to thinking.
We have a vary diverse member ship and a thought provoking idea like this one is bound to turn up some unexpected comments. I have gotten into the habit of expecting the unexpected ... around here, and I enjoy reading each post. There is no right or wrong answer when we open a topic like this one.
I notice that folks keep talking about mass numbers of evil folks comming after you and what you got like it's gonna look like some kind of banzai charge. If the doo doo hits to fan that is. Well, most likely, the same people that would want to rape, pillage and plunder would be the same types that greed would make attack each other for the same thing you got. I doubt more than two or three would ever be able to agree on anything long enough to attack anybody. Even then, the most danger would be in the cities where there is already a greater chance to be attacked.
Now think, How many of us Buckskinner types would stay in a city if things got really bad? I know I won't. I'll be grabbing my gear (and maybe my wife) and heading for the mountains. That would put me in an area that would provide better chances for survival (even if I only got my one cap lock style smokepole). Also, the chances of encountering anyone that's looking to cause harm are reduced greatly. Plus, I'll also have a tommahawk and knife to use as weapons. Also the greatest weapon of all - my brain.
So, in my humble opinion, a muzzleloader is indeed a true surevival weapon. Thank you class. Today's lesson is concluded.
I see what you are saying, and the folks you might see are more than likely one of us and the brings the chance of survival up and gives two shots ensted of just one.
Yup.
Less likely to have problems with fekow buckskinners as we seem to be one BIG family. Unlike alot of the folks now, we watch out for eachother.
Voy
The Evil Horde in these scenarios are the weak minded people who got us into this in the first place, there will always be the weak minded being led by the strong willed... and yes they will start in the cities and then as need dictates start moving out into the countryside. I live 20 miles give or take from Tulsa, OK in a remote canyon which has a beautiful view of nothing but trees as far as I can see... But in a crises the horde will find me.. Oh well, there is only one way into my property for vehicles.... and I can make some nasty surprises....
I would not hesitate to use my muzzleloader in a survival situation, either flint or caplock. There is a big difference between survival and combat situation, still in a combat scenario I would rather have a flint or cap lock than nothing at all, which is what I fear is heading our way.
deleted by author flwa