Traditional Muzzleloading on the Cheap

Firearms => Smoothbore and Shotguns => Topic started by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 12:15:25 AM

Title: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 12:15:25 AM
I just today found a TC smooth bore .50 cal Hawken. The price is $340. It appears to be very new or un-unused.
What use is a smooth bore?  I put the ramrod down bore, seems that there is something in the chamber!!!!? As the obstruction is short I think some one "dry balled" this gun.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 11, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
Smooth bores were the all purpose workhorse of westward exploration, being able to achieve reasonable accuracy at shorter yardage using a RB plus you can use shot of every size to accomplish your goal.  Here's a way to check if there is a ball in the bore; first of all make sure it isn't primed and hammer is fully down, then drop the ram rod down the barrel.  If it "tinks" and bounces a little then you are striking steel, if it "thuds" and doesn't rebound then you've got lead in it.  If there is a RB or shot down it then treat it as if it is loaded and ready to go off.  I suggest you find a CO2 discharger and blow everything out, and be sure to point it in a safe direction because the compressed gas can send a ball/shot downrange fast enough to injure someone.

Personally I wouldn't pay that much for one but that is strictly due to where I live.  Things like that can have different values to people depending on where they live and what they want to do with it.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 01:00:40 AM
It "thuds"  hdslp
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 11, 2013, 01:12:00 AM
Yea, you've got lead down there.  You might pull the nipple and see if powder comes out but be safe and assume that it's loaded.  If no powder comes out then you can dribble in some 4f, cap it and see if dropping the hammer will loosen it all up, that has worked for me in the past.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 01:16:57 AM
It's on the rack at a open shop. I have not bought or traded for it. Is it worth the time and price?
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 11, 2013, 01:30:33 AM
Quote from: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 01:16:57 AM
It's on the rack at a open shop. I have not bought or traded for it. Is it worth the time and price?
Sure, it might be worth it.  Check the bore first and see what condition it's in up to the dryball.  If it's heavily pitted or rusty then it's going to be a shot shooter only and will probably need frequent cleaning but if the bore is nice and shiny then offer them $300-$335 for it and see what they say. Ask them how long they've had it and often they will make a discounted offer right then and there if it's been in inventory for a while.  Also ask to pull the barrel and check out the condition of the stock and barrel as this can sometimes be revealing and be a bargaining point.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 01:56:31 AM
The bore still has blue. I don't see any rust. I might make a trade
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 11, 2013, 02:03:39 AM
Sounds like a plan, let us know how things turn out.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 11, 2013, 02:05:39 AM
When next you inspect this gun, drop the ramrod down as you did before and mark it even with the muzzle of the barrel. Lay it alongside the barrel. There is a seam between the breechplug and barrel -- about 5/8" of what's ahead of the seam is the threaded breechplug shank. It's what's ahead of THAT, that is critical. If the ramrod comes to stop right at 1 1/8" ahead of the juncture (seam) of the breechplug and barrel, all you have in there is a round ball. More than that, though -- it could be a conical slug taking up the extra length but odds are excellent there's a charge of powder behind a ball.

Of course the assumption is ALWAYS that the gun is loaded, and in this case it'd be insanely negligent to imagine anything else, but the above test will help you get a fix on what to expect if/when you acquire the gun and clear the barrel.

The price is actually pretty good, though as William says in some parts of the country it'd be considered a little high. The smoothbore barrel is worth a small premium, if the gun were to be evaluated -- whether it's worth anything extra to you is another story.

Loaded carefully a good smoothbore will deliver accuracy on a par with a rifle out to about 50-60 yards. A rifle's actually more accurate, simply by virtue of being a rifle, but it takes a really, really good shot to tell the difference -- for most practical purposes in the hands of the average shooter the smoothbore is plenty accurate.

Whether you buy it or not I would stress wanting to be helpful and point out to the shop owner that the gun is very likely still loaded. Folks accustomed to modern guns are often completely unfamiliar with muzzleloaders and will consequently do ignorant things (not stupid; ignorant, as in not knowing better) that can potentially lead to anything from embarressment to tragedy. Best to enlighten him -- in fact I would consider it a moral duty.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 02:12:39 AM
Looking at how much of the ram rod was out of the bore I think it is a rb only. Probably why it was pawned.i will inform the shop owner.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 11, 2013, 02:30:13 AM
If it was pawned because the original owner couldn't figure out how to remove a dryball then all the better for you.  As for the asking price, I always ask the pawnshop what they have in it.  Don't believe them if they say that they bought it for $340 but don't be ugly about it.  I suggested an offer of between $300 & $335 because even if they knock only $5 off the price you both end up feeling like you've come out ahead. However, I would not be surprised if they bought it for $150.  I hope it works out for you.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 11, 2013, 02:35:11 AM
I'll inform the board how it goes wtch
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 12, 2013, 09:13:00 PM
 hi:  Well I did not buy the TC, but I took a range rod to check the chamber. It was clear. I am contiplating a trade of a  good Marlin 336.  skrt ucrzy ucrzy
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: prairieofthedog on January 12, 2013, 11:43:24 PM
West Texan,Are you sure this is a.50 smooth bore?Thompson Center made a .56 Renegade smoothy for a few years.It was 1" inch across the flats.If it is not a .56 it is a custom job somebody had made.And as everybody else said they probably take a lot less for the gun.If they paid over $150 for it I would be surprised.Good luck.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 13, 2013, 12:10:29 AM
I'm working the parts from a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain .54 caliber smoothbore barrel into a lefthanded fullstock for a customer. Green Mountain has also made .50 caliber smoothbore barrels -- I had one pass through my shop a few years back. It's possible the barrel on the gun in question is a Green Mountain drop-in for the T/C, in .50 caliber smoothbore. In that case, assuming a good-to-excellent bore, the gun is most definitely worth the asking price.

For those who might not know (and in case someone might have a need to ID a barrel) the Green Mountain logo is located just to the rear of the caliber stamping, and is a roughly 3/16" circle with three stylized mountain peaks inside it. Generally on the GM drop-in barrels it will be found on the righthand upper diagonal flat. The rifled drop-ins are fairly expensive and the smoothbored drop-ins are fairly rare, so.... [hmm]
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 12:18:49 AM
I am not understanding what you mean when you say that you used a range rod to find that the chamber was clear?  Did you get a bore light down it to see what shape that was in?
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 13, 2013, 01:59:21 AM
I had a range rod with a ball puller screw it went all the way to the bottom of the barrel. It must have a firing chamber that the guns ram rod would not reach into. It seemed that there might have been an obstruction but there was none.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 13, 2013, 02:00:18 AM
It is clearly smoothbore no rifling to be seen and the bore seems new.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 02:16:18 AM
I understand now, the chamber is somewhat smaller than the bore itself, probably to lend strength to the barrel.  Someone correct me if I'd wrong in my assumption, I'd rather know if my hunches are correct rather than pass on an inaccuracy.  Did you ever determine if it is a Green Mountain barrel?
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: West Texan on January 13, 2013, 02:29:39 AM
TC all the way., and no rifling. It's one of those guns i don't need.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 02:50:44 AM
Ah, now I see even more clearly.  It was worth investigating though, and sometimes you do find a diamond in the rough at a pawn shop.  Too bad this wasn't one of them.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 13, 2013, 03:15:49 AM
The sub-bore-sized chamber does in fact lend strength to the breechplug-barrel joining. The threaded breechplug shank is 11/16" diameter, and with threads cut into it and a .50 caliber hole punched through it there'd be not much more than 1/16" of solid metal around that hole. Of course the 15/16" diameter barrel into which the shank threads would add roughly 1/8" more metal around the chamber, but as it is there's a good mass of steel (about 5/16" thick when you combine the chamber and barrel walls) to withstand the pressure of the ignited powder starting a ball or bullet forward.

However, the primary purpose of the reduced-sized chamber isn't strength, but reliability and consistency of ignition. The basic idea is as old as firearms themselves. In the late 1700's, Joseph Manton, widely considered the best English gunmaker of his time and therefore in the running for having been the best gunmaker in the world, not only in his time but any other, patented a variation of the centuries-old idea that not only featured the smaller powder chamber but a breechplug relieved on its lock side to allow the lock mechanism to be inletted deeper into the stock -- the result being a slimmer firearm (especially important on double-barrelled guns and critically important on double-barrelled flinters) with first the pan of the lock and a few decades later the nipple situated closer to the powder charge. The term "patent breech" was quite naturally applied to this system and both T/C and Investarms utilize a modified version of Manton's original design.

The face of a T/C or Investarms plug is coned from chamber to bore diameter, so that it acts as a funnel for both the in-flowing powder during loading and the outward force of igniting powder as the gun fires. I don't know if the "true" patent breech face, as perfected by Manton, was similarly coned. If it's truly an advantage then I would bet it was, simply because betting against Manton's genius strikes me as a fool's game.

Now the source of ignition (priming powder or percussion cap) being nearer the powder charge I can understand in terms of improving ignition, but the physics of how the reduced-diameter chamber provides more reliable and consistent ignition are something I've never read up on and quite frankly do NOT understand. In case someone doesn't get what that implies -- I can't explain it and I can't very well argue the point if someone expresses doubt as to the effectiveness of the design. I know that both Manton brothers (John was the younger brother to Joseph and a top-ranked gunsmith in his own right) and most other leading gunsmiths of their time made use of the idea, and as stated earlier a fine Manton gun was as good as it ever got -- so obviously it must have worked.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 13, 2013, 03:17:40 AM
Quote from: William on January 13, 2013, 02:50:44 AM
Ah, now I see even more clearly.  It was worth investigating though, and sometimes you do find a diamond in the rough at a pawn shop.  Too bad this wasn't one of them.

Still a diamond in the rough, just not everyone has the same taste in diamonds.... ROFL
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 04:00:37 AM
Quote from: mongrel on January 13, 2013, 03:17:40 AM
Quote from: William on January 13, 2013, 02:50:44 AM
Ah, now I see even more clearly.  It was worth investigating though, and sometimes you do find a diamond in the rough at a pawn shop.  Too bad this wasn't one of them.
Still a diamond in the rough, just not everyone has the same taste in diamonds.... ROFL
True enough; perhaps this is now a ruby or emerald in the rough?

QuoteThe term "patent breech" was quite naturally applied to this system and both T/C and Investarms utilize a modified version of Manton's original design.
Gosh I am glad I posed this comment here on TMotC, and no sarcasm intended at all.  Not only did I learn something but it was explained to me in a way that didn't make me feel as if I was some kind of idiot, or told to just look up the patent breach design and it would all become clear; meantime don't bother us real forum members with your stupid questions.  ;D
There are too many muzzle loading forums where the membership would have lit into me for making such an assumption, this is truly a special place.  chrrs
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 13, 2013, 04:22:49 AM
For every one thing I (or anyone) knows, there's an infinity of things that we don't. It's not exactly a realization that ought to encourage arrogance.... ROFL

Besides, as I said, though I know how and why it was done, I don't know how it works. Again -- under the circumstances arrogance wouldn't exactly be the right tone to take.

And, you know -- Golden Rule and all that nonsense....
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: William on January 13, 2013, 04:43:56 AM
Yep.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: HellBound on January 14, 2013, 10:26:51 AM
From the testimony I would guess this is a bored smooth 45 barrel.

            P.A.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: prairieofthedog on January 15, 2013, 03:15:53 AM
PA,that makes sense.Mystery solved,maybe LOL!
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: Hank12 on January 31, 2013, 05:51:23 PM
P.A. , rebored .45 was my guess also.
Mongrel, are you sure about Manson? Nock invented the patent breech and patened it in April, 1757, said to improve ignition and increase velocity.
I haven't found better ignition or higher velocity from that type breech.  What I do see is a lot of folks getting poor ignition because the channel gets fouled and is hard to clean. I like the drum and nipple or the straight shot into the powder of the flint much better. Just my opinion, lot's of folks love the Patent  breech. H12
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: mongrel on January 31, 2013, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Hank12 on January 31, 2013, 05:51:23 PM
P.A. , rebored .45 was my guess also.
Mongrel, are you sure about Manson? Nock invented the patent breech and patened it in April, 1757, said to improve ignition and increase velocity.
I haven't found better ignition or higher velocity from that type breech.  What I do see is a lot of folks getting poor ignition because the channel gets fouled and is hard to clean. I like the drum and nipple or the straight shot into the powder of the flint much better. Just my opinion, lot's of folks love the Patent  breech. H12

I took the info directly from a book dealing with antique firearms, primarily English -- but that may not prove a thing. The book is aimed primarily at collectors and the tone of the Foreword makes it plain that the authors consider the book's existence and the pictures and descriptions in it to be acceptable substitutes for actually being able to own, handle, or even view the actual guns. In other words, it seems to have been written by "experts" who are quite comfortable with the present-day English notion that gun ownership is an obsolete concept. That mentality doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in the correctness of any information they might offer.

So you may very well be right, and in fact I'm going to go on the assumption that your info is correct and mine is not.

I actually second your comment on the variation of the patent breech as produced by T/C and Investarms, as far as their reliability. And, so far as the originals go, be they Nock or Manton, Lang or Wogdon, whoever, I've never come across feedback on how well they actually performed. I know they're somewhat different from what T/C and Investarms call a patent breech. I think it's a safe assumption that, having been the chosen system on a large number of guns by some of the premiere gunmakers in the history of firearms, the system worked well -- but a safe assumption is still just that, an assumption.
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: graybear on February 01, 2013, 02:41:14 PM
Just my two cents worth & cheap @ half the price. I remember reading a decription of a muzzleloader for sale that said it was a smoothbore because of a state requirement years ago that guns used for hunting could not have rifling.  The seller said the law had since been changed for muzzleloaders. I don't remember for sure what state it was. New Hampshire or Massachusetts maybe?
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: Hank12 on February 01, 2013, 04:32:36 PM
Mongrel, I just googled Nock and Manton and there was a lot of info on both them and their patent breeches. Nock in 1757 and Manton in 1797. Lots of pics and diagrams but from my view ,looking at the diagrams of the breeches, they both looked just alike. I learned a lot about the Mantons. I knew about their guns but not their breeches. Hank12
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: Blackfeet on February 21, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
That was Massachusetts
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: old salt on February 21, 2013, 09:23:26 PM
As for cleaning the so called patent breech I pull the barrel and nipple, put it in a bucket of hot water, patch the cleaning jag and pump water up through barrel until the water comes out clear. Dry and lube the barrel reinstall barrel. I do this at least 3 times a year and some times more often. Depending on the amount of shooting I do. So far I have not had problem of fowling in that area.

Under stand that the guns I have that have the patent beech are half stocks and pulling the barrel.
Just one mans way for cleaning
Title: Re: T/C Hawken smooth bore
Post by: HellBound on February 24, 2013, 05:23:37 AM
My previous guess that the rifle in question may be a bored smooth 45. I have recently come across a T/C factory 50 smooth.  The story is this is a product of T/Cs custom shoppe. The only script on the barrel is: Thompson/Center   50cal.   go figger

                           P.A.