I am going to be buying a flintlock kit soon. My only shooting experience has been with TC hawkens ,Thing is I dont like the looks of them and its not what Im after. What I have been looking at is either a southern/Tenn. mountain or late Lancaster style stock shape 45 cal. with a 36" barrel. Others are options too but I just dont know how comfortable any of them are for shooting paper or hunting which I do alot of both . I have noticed alot of stocks have alot of drop like 4" . Is there a good average drop or shape that lends itself better to comfort? :read that as not getting smacked in the cheek or good natural sight alignment. Same with some of the styles with the highly curved butt plates?
Thanks,Tim
Tim, that's a hard question to answer for another person. I could tell you what I like but you might be built different than I am. I like at least about 3" of drop and 3" of drop will fit most folks and will make it easy to get your face down to some low mounted sights. I like to put the butt on my shoulder so I like the flatter style of buttplates. I have a Southern Mt. .45 and I put on a buttplate with just a slight curve at the top, still looks good and feels good. I don't care for the deep curved plates. You need to go to a Muzzleloader show or a rondevoux where you can feel a lot of guns and decide which you like. Whatever you get you'll probably find something later that you like better. If you live around Tenn. area, go see Tip Curtis. Hank
A 4" drop will take a lot of getting used to. A normal cheek weld to the cheekpiece is about impossible -- I have a fairly lean face and find that on guns with that degree of drop I end up with my lower jaw instead of my cheek pressed to the side of the comb.
The T/C design of stock has only about 2 1/4" drop at the heel, and far too much bulk in the butt of the stock, the comb in particular. The result is a stock design that, though incredibly durable, also tends to punish the face of the person shooting it. The traditionally-styled kits you're looking at will have slimmer combs, with cheekpieces that taper slightly away from your face as the guns recoil. This is very good stock design. This advantage is somewhat offset on later-period guns by the greater drop of the butt (compared to earlier rifles) and a greater degree of curve to the buttplates. Some historically-correct plates have a degree of curve that require they be positioned on your upper arm, between the swell of the tricep and bicep muscles, instead of being pressed to the shoulder as modern shooters are accustomed to.
I prefer earlier-styled guns, myself, whether for my own use or if I'm building with a new-to-muzzleloading shooter in mind. In kit form you find these in a couple or several forms -- the Early Lancaster, which can also be had as a variant known as the Isaac Haines (Haines being a Revolutionary-period Lancaster builder and not a style unto himself), and the Early Virginia. You might also run across a York County pattern in certain suppliers' catalogs, which is very similar to the Lancaster (York and Lancaster were and still are neighboring counties in eastern Pennsylvania). What these guns have in common is roughly 3" of drop at the heel, a relatively wide (1 5/8" to slightly over 2") and relatively flat buttplate, and a near-perfectly-straight comb line that makes them all very user-friendly and easy for a modern shooter to transition to. The design of the stocks dates to a time when calibers were larger, as a general rule, owing to a very real need to put an immediate stop to hostile intentions from a variety of human types and dangerous game, both, and in terms of managing recoil they have never been improved on.
I second what Hank12 suggested, that if at all possible you attend various events and shows where you will have the opportunity to handle different styles of rifle. Often what looks great doesn't feel so much so -- there's no substitute for some hands-on inspection of various types to decide what will work best for you.
I have a SMR, early and late Lancasters. The Lancaster, either early or late is very comfortable and rather familiar to shooters who have experience with modern guns. You CAN have too much drop so something like the Lancaster/York/etc should work fine I love them. With a .45 you can forget about recoil, anyway.
I agree with the previous posts, if at all possible get your hands on some rifles and pull them up to your shoulder. Ask what style it is and who made it, don't worry about whether it is custom or production or kit gun, just try out as many as you can get your hands on before you buy anything.
Most of us are happy to tell you about our guns and let you try them or shoot them if you ask. The very worst kickers I have used are the Cabelas / Dixie Gun Works Italian Hawkens, they will bruise your cheek with heavy loads and make you look like you have been in a fight and lost.
I shoot TC Hawkens, both kit and production, Pedersoli Kentucky and Pennsylvania, and a Mike Lange late Lancaster. All serve their purpose just fine and I choose according to what I want to do that day.
I agree with what has been said. There is no 'Norm'. I find that the TC stock fits me well at 14 + inches, long arms for my body, but love the fit of my M1 Garand (sorry hdslp) at 12 1/2". The rest of the gun matters. I recently listed 2 Lyman rifles because they just do not feel right to me , while most folks love them. Try all that you can.
Thanks for the input so far. These are two of the several Ive been looking seriously at. The southern is the one that really twinkles my eye though thmbsup just like the lines of the rifle and the simple trim
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/southern.htm
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/pennsylvania_iron.htm
they both from the pictures at least seem not to have severe drop or too much curve on the butt plate. As far as getting hands on so different rifles for comparison I dont think theres any shops in my end of the state,I am new at this so I could be wrong If anyone knows some places within an hour or so of me please let me know.
Hanshi are you the same one over at Castboolits? Im "RU shooter" over there
Matt and Toni Avance (owners of TVM) are great people and make guns that are fine blends of historically correct and affordable. They're also very customer-friendly and happy to answer any questions you might have. If it were me I would call or e-mail them and ask about such details as the drop at heel and butt width on the models you're interested in. Explain why you're asking and they should be able to provide you with plenty of useful information to consider in making your decision. Building these things over a long period of time, as they have, gives a person a lot of insight as to what is most likely to work well for a customer, if the customer gives a good idea of what he's looking for.
A great many members here own TVM rifles and smoothbores and are very happy with them.
If I might offer a suggestion from the builder's perspective -- when making inquiries like this, at least from my standpoint e-mail works best. The phone ringing while I'm in the middle of something I really can't stop, means I'm not going to be able to pick up or to talk at length if I do pick up. E-mail allows the person you're asking to answer your questions when they have time to devote their full attention to what you want to know, and also when they send a reply you have the info in writing and don't have to worry about forgetting what was said.
. Thanks I will do that.Would anyone happen to have their email address ? when I click on the link on their web page my puter says I have to open it with Yahoo or Gmail neither of which I have and cant get the address...... ???
Tim, Have you built any kits before ? Whether yes or no I strongly suggest you get Peter Alexanders book"Gunsmith of Grenville co." a huge wealth of info on all phases of rifle building. He goes into DETAIL on stock design, fit & style. Worth the $$........Tom
Quote from: mongrel on December 30, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
Matt and Toni Avance (owners of TVM) are great people and make guns that are fine blends of historically correct and affordable. They're also very customer-friendly and happy to answer any questions you might have. If it were me I would call or e-mail them and ask about such details as the drop at heel and butt width on the models you're interested in. Explain why you're asking and they should be able to provide you with plenty of useful information to consider in making your decision. Building these things over a long period of time, as they have, gives a person a lot of insight as to what is most likely to work well for a customer, if the customer gives a good idea of what he's looking for.
A great many members here own TVM rifles and smoothbores and are very happy with them.
If I might offer a suggestion from the builder's perspective -- when making inquiries like this, at least from my standpoint e-mail works best. The phone ringing while I'm in the middle of something I really can't stop, means I'm not going to be able to pick up or to talk at length if I do pick up. E-mail allows the person you're asking to answer your questions when they have time to devote their full attention to what you want to know, and also when they send a reply you have the info in writing and don't have to worry about forgetting what was said.
Peach Pie & I both shoot TVM flinters & I can attest to the quality & workmanship. My daughter has a Mike Lange left handed rugrat rifle. The two boys shoot GPR's. Poor kids have to suffer with off the shelf guns... ROFL
Quote from: gunmaker on December 30, 2012, 06:10:59 PM
Tim, Have you built any kits before ? Whether yes or no I strongly suggest you get Peter Alexanders book"Gunsmith of Grenville co." a huge wealth of info on all phases of rifle building. He goes into DETAIL on stock design, fit & style. Worth the $$........Tom
<tvm@avsia.com>
Thanks I sent them an email.
As far as my building experience I did a TC with dad back in the early 80's hdslp yeah I know not even close! For about the last two months Ive been reading about every tutorial i could find and watching you Tube so that should give me about 3% of the knowledge I need to do it!!!! Im a pretty sharp "mechanical" type of guy and if i can get my hands on parts I can generally figure things out without too much problem.
Where could I find some books or info that I dont have to order of the web.Would some book stores or possibly library have anything? I just hate giving a CC number out anymore unless its absolutely necessary.
Tim
#1,your going to own a lot of guns before you find the "perfect one",then another "perfect one" will come along and so on.......
#2,Unless your gun shoot's the BEST group with a "heavy"load,it's not a concern. Once your most accurate group is found,dont change it.
#3,I dont use Credit or Bank Debit card's either. I use re-loadable debit card's that Visa,Master card and now Wal-Mart offer forover the net purchases. I'llkeep the minimum on them,add the dough I want to spend,then spend. I dont even bank on-line. Too many A-Holes poking around trying to get in.
Anything available from various muzzleloading suppliers via the internet can almost always be ordered by conventional mail -- just make note of the prices, order numbers, and shipping costs on books or other items you want, possibly e-mail or call the supplier to verify the total cost of what you want, then mail a written order with a check or money order.
Not many bookstores carry the sorts of books that are useful to builders/students of muzzleloading guns. Large outfits like Barnes & Noble might list some titles that are worth having, but if an individual store doesn't actually stock that title I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that the manager of the store will tell you, correctly, that the only way to get what you want is to order it on-line. A lot of outfits (not just booksellers) have a very firm disconnect between their actual stores and their on-line services.
As far as actual titles that might be of use to you -- one of the best and also one of the least-costly is "The Art Of Building The Pennsylvania Long Rifle" by Dixon, Ehrig, and Miller. I've burned through two copies. Apparently the guys I loaned them to found them so valuable that they couldn't bear to return them, and I'm at a point of not needing how-to books any more, so will not be buying a third copy unless a used one crosses my path at a very low price.
The reference to the "Pennsylvania Long Rifle" in the title doesn't mean the book's usefulness is limited solely to that species of firearm. It's actually a general how-to that applies to about any form of muzzleloading firearm. Its one drawback IMHO, unless recent editions have been updated to include modern methods of doing things, is that it assumes the use of nothing but hand tools -- no band saws, electric drills, routers, sanders, nothing -- just muscle-powered tools operated in natural daylight.
I've never really looked at Peter Alexander's "The Gunsmith Of Grenville County" and so I can't offer an opinion of its value, though many other builders and students of the muzzleloading rifle speak well of it.
William Buchele authored "Recreating The American Longrifle", which I haven't had the chance to look at in many years but recall as being quite good.
Even with good reference works, in putting together one of these kits it's adviseable to if at all possible have someone to mentor you, someone who's done it before (preferably several times) -- if for no other reason than to advise on potential problems, going in, and because if problems do arise two heads are often better than one in figuring out solutions.
If nothing else, once you start, unless a process is crystal-clear to you, log on here and ask advice. Several of us are happy to help out, have got a combined total of many, many years of experience in building these guns, and once in a great while even come up with answers that are both coherent and useful.
I would highly advise the plainest wood and most basic style of rifle you can acquire. I have, on my schedule right now, the completing of a Chambers kit that the owner bought quite awhile ago. The wood alone costs as much as my lower-priced rifles. After sitting on some $1500 worth of wood and parts he finally got in touch with me and asked how much and how long to put it together. Not only does it sicken a person to even think of ruining several hundred dollars worth of curly maple stock blank, but the curlier and fancier that stuff is, the more of a backstabbing she-dog it is to work with. A plain rifle will present plenty of challenge but allow you to be more forgiving of yourself if something turns out less than perfect, and if all goes well it will simply build your confidence for something nicer or more involved.
Tim try track of the wolf.com, they have a good selection of smithing books. I print their order form then send 'em a cash. chk.....keep my CC in my pocket. good luck, nice time a year to drive to southern Indiana--pay Mike Lange a visit "mongrel' his work shines..........Tom
Whatever you wind up buying and building you WILL make some mistakes when you build it, but so what? It will be something you made and you will (and should) be proud of it. So do some more research, look over some real guns and hold them when you get a chance, then go for it!
Again Thanks all for the help ,encouragement and wisdom. I will indeed do some researching and try to to locate some different rifles to get the feel of them along with getting some reading material. And not to worry I am starting with "plain and basic" As thats me in a nutshell I honestly dont like flashy fancy stocks as I always worry about scratching or dinging them at the range or in the woods as I said this is gonna be a gun that WILL be used and not just looked at.
Ive been looking around and it seems my area (SW Pa) is like a black hole when it comes to traditional rifles .Anyone possibly know any shops that may deal or have some I could go and look at and get my paws on for comparison ? Id be willing to drive some distance but just not across the state.
I have a new favorite to add to the stable of favorites. The chopped TC New Englander just goes to point as if on instinct and shoots extremely well. I found the stock barrel length to be heavy out front. I did notice that the LOP seems shorter but the butt plate may be a factor.
I don't know of any shops in SW Pa. making guns, I do know that area was a big rifle making area 2 cen. ago. Sommerset, Snyder & other countys are well known for their rifle guns. Books are available showing the diff. schools of their products. Once you start digging into the history of American long rifles it can well become an addiction, I speak from experience. Look around, Lots.....Tom
Quote from: Tim Ault on December 30, 2012, 02:24:35 PM
Thanks for the input so far. These are two of the several Ive been looking seriously at. The southern is the one that really twinkles my eye though thmbsup just like the lines of the rifle and the simple trim
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/southern.htm
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/pennsylvania_iron.htm
they both from the pictures at least seem not to have severe drop or too much curve on the butt plate. As far as getting hands on so different rifles for comparison I dont think theres any shops in my end of the state,I am new at this so I could be wrong If anyone knows some places within an hour or so of me please let me know.
I am a huge fan of the SMR. Shoot with the curved butt plate between the bicep and shoulder.. My most used is a 7/8 barrel in .40 and second is a 1" .50. Both 42" long. Yea, I like em muzzle heavy.
TC
Well instead of getting a kit for my first rifle I ended up getting a already built gun for about what I would have spent on the parts. It's a southern mountain style with iron trim, stock has a modest sub 3" drop and buttplate has a little less than the normal southern curve to it . 36 inch 45 cal 7/8" barrel . Feels good and hangs nice offhand ,haven't had a chance to shoot it yet as there was a mishap in shipping and the toe of the stock ended up getting split so I'm hashing that out with the seller now.
Tim
lets see some pics ! ;D my southern mountain rifle is my favorite ! and it was rough when I bought it ! took lots of work to get it lookin like it does now , but I`ve been shootin it since the mid 80`s ! guns have come and gone , but that one stays ! so I`m sayin you made a good choice ! dntn
Quote from: mongrel on December 30, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
Matt and Toni Avance (owners of TVM) are great people and make guns that are fine blends of historically correct and affordable. They're also very customer-friendly and happy to answer any questions you might have. If it were me I would call or e-mail them and ask about such details as the drop at heel and butt width on the models you're interested in. Explain why you're asking and they should be able to provide you with plenty of useful information to consider in making your decision. Building these things over a long period of time, as they have, gives a person a lot of insight as to what is most likely to work well for a customer, if the customer gives a good idea of what he's looking for.
A great many members here own TVM rifles and smoothbores and are very happy with them.
If I might offer a suggestion from the builder's perspective -- when making inquiries like this, at least from my standpoint e-mail works best. The phone ringing while I'm in the middle of something I really can't stop, means I'm not going to be able to pick up or to talk at length if I do pick up. E-mail allows the person you're asking to answer your questions when they have time to devote their full attention to what you want to know, and also when they send a reply you have the info in writing and don't have to worry about forgetting what was said.
i have one of matts early virginia rifles and it is by far the most comfortanle one i own, not to mention accurate, the crockett 32 is also good fer me , you will have to find what fits ya best yer ownself, one of the things cant nobody else do fer ya! a large guy and a small guy will find different things comfortable to them
Both of those rifles are about a good as it gets. Still have my Crockett but had to part with the EV some time back.