Has anyone used the roundball(buckshot) from BPI called Super Buckshot, its got 6% antimony(sp) and they told me people order it to use to shoot in muzzleloaders..would this be ok for patched roundballs, would be using it in a .32 Traditions DeerHunter?
Just joined the forum a day or two ago and this is my 1st post, not new to muzzleloading but have been out of the traditional side of it for about 20 yrs...if this is the wrong forum I apologize and please feel free to move to the right one.
I would think it would be too hard, but depending on size, the patch could be thick enough to fill the grooves and grip the ball.
But I doubt it would "form" to the grooves itself.
I kind of thought they would be, was thinking of getting the .300 shot size and adjusting patch thickness plus using about 12-15 gr. of Goex fffg..
Quote from: Dogshirt on November 29, 2012
I would think it would be too hard, but depending on size, the patch could be thick enough to fill the grooves and grip the ball.
But I doubt it would "form" to the grooves itself.
From all I have read, on casting roundballs for muzzleloaders, Roundballs MUST be 99.9% pure lead. I believe it has to do with gripping the rifling and also for purposes of expansion when penetrating target.
For engaging rifling I can understand but as far as expansion you need very little when shooting a .32 or .36 ball through a squirrels head or shoulders.the size of the ball would be like a cannon ball going thrrough them. (susp) Ive read that some people like their roundballs harder for better penetration but then again on small game not needed.
Quote from: pilgrim on November 29, 2012
From all I have read, on casting roundballs for muzzleloaders, Roundballs MUST be 99.9% pure lead. I believe it has to do with gripping the rifling and also for purposes of expansion when penetrating target.
This is just one man's theory, backed by a boat load of shooting experience.
The harder the projectile the deeper the penetration, on the other hand the harder the projectile the less expansion, the lesser expansion means less energy absorbed by the target
Thus the reason all signatories of the Geneva Convention are required to use full metal jacket rounds.
Now as to the shoot ability or the accuracy in muzzleloader I have no idea how hard is to hard.
As I said this just my theory
In my .40 supplies I have a mixed batch of .390 balls that vary from soft to very hard and they all seem to shoot the same for me, in fact I think the hard ones may shoot a little better than the soft ones.
For my revolvers I try to use the softest lead I can find because the harder ones are really hard to load, but then again I use a .457 ball in my Piettas and they are realy made to use a 451-454 ball.
Thanks Old Salt. and flintboomer. One more thought just occured to me. by adding tin to make a rb harder, we are also making a lighter rb. How will this effect shooting, or is it just minimal
I cast up some ww lead once and it shot ok but it did hit a bit high at 50yrds. I have been of the understanding that the patch is what fills the groves so there should be no problems with shooting harder lead. Some old timers back in the day thought it would wear out the barrel faster than soft lead. I never believed that because the lead in a rb never touches the metal.
Jim
If you recover a properly seated ball, whether pulled, CO2 discharged, or from bullet capture medium, it should have grooves impressed
on it. No, the bullet does not touch the barrel, but should engage the rifling none the less. I have found them with an impression of the
weave of the patch on them, but the grooves and lands are there just the same.
On another forum one of the members did tests with precision brass balls, up to shooting a deer with such a load, and was satisfied with
the results. But there again, the patch is all that is engaging the grooves and I would have doubts as to accuracy at any distance over 40-50
yards.
Just some thoughts over my first cup of the day.
For what its worth , The lead dosn,t have to be 99% pure to cast RBs. WW work and some prefer the harder alloy. Myself , I prefer as pure a lead as I can obtain . I think it puts less preasure /strain on the loading of C&B revolvers as opposed to WW lead. But in a ML using a patch isolates the ball/bullet from contact with the bore.
I.m not certain , but I think "Roundball" posts on th
is site at times . For many years he shot /owned /collected an experimented with various materials for projectiles , The work he did w "glass" marbles proved the projectile being hard didn,t seem to alter the accy , but being lighter shortened the efective range.
Alsso any information publishd by BPI should be examined closly . Not too long ago , there was mny rumors that lead would be totally outlawed and everyone needed t purchase their product to meet the new regulations etc. There is little doubt that anti-gunners anti-hunter will continue to pound away at the use of lead , but as yet they get no cigar .
Oh yeah , the name of the co. promoting the alloy RBs is/was ITX. No doubt an upstandig co. but not opposed to using scare tactis to increase their "bottom line". The sky is falling , The sky is falling.
bs
I shoot WW balls occasionally and have no problem.
hey guys thanks for all the responses, I think Im going to order some and try them...
I have 20 + lbs of wheel weights and have been casting all my ball and R.E.A.L. round with w.w. for the past 2 years with no issues.... of course I can't hit the broad side of the barn either... bunkr
Quote from: Red Badger on December 01, 2012
I have 20 + lbs of wheel weights and have been casting all my ball and R.E.A.L. round with w.w. for the past 2 years with no issues.... of course I can't hit the broad side of the barn either... bunkr
have you tried closing the doors first ? ROFL ROFL :mini-devil-28492:
Quote from: beowulf on December 02, 2012
Quote from: Red Badger on December 01, 2012
I have 20 + lbs of wheel weights and have been casting all my ball and R.E.A.L. round with w.w. for the past 2 years with no issues.... of course I can't hit the broad side of the barn either... bunkr
have you tried closing the doors first ? ROFL ROFL :mini-devil-28492:
hdslp hdslp
Quote from: dbowling on December 06, 2012
Quote from: beowulf on December 02, 2012
Quote from: Red Badger on December 01, 2012
I have 20 + lbs of wheel weights and have been casting all my ball and R.E.A.L. round with w.w. for the past 2 years with no issues.... of course I can't hit the broad side of the barn either... bunkr
have you tried closing the doors first ? ROFL ROFL :mini-devil-28492:
hdslp hdslp
I may be the primary administrator on this site but as you can see I am also the butt of must of the jokes around here.... I happen to have very thick skin and can let the children have their fun, but I do have the oppertunity to get even... whipping
blah
hdslp That could be why Badgers rifle, named Patience, [hmm] waits patiently for him to ....................... (susp) Apparently the rifle DID name itelf. ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL blah
Quote from: Red Badger on December 01, 2012
I have 20 + lbs of wheel weights and have been casting all my ball and R.E.A.L. round with w.w. for the past 2 years with no issues.... of course I can't hit the broad side of the barn either... bunkr
Try shooting at the barn from the inside. It helps me a great deal. ;D
On a more serious note about the alloy question.
I've not cast many RB's but have cast many, many BPCR bullets in various alloys. What my mentor taught me is that up to a 50-1 lead-tin alloy is beneficial for casting and does not affect the hardness greatly. The tin in small quantities does act sort of like a soap to help reduce the surface tension of the alloy letting it more completely fill out the mold at a lower operating temperature. Antimony does two things. First is to increase hardness, the second is to dampen the effect of the tin to grow an uneven crystalline structure in the bullet, making if unbalanced.
So my learning is that a 50-1 lead-tin alloy seems to cast really nice bullets and rb's. I've not noticed any difficulty loading or a difference in accuracy, Of course I'm a relative newcomer to shooting rb's.
And this information is worth everything you paid for it. hdslp
Yea, some days it seems that I can't even hit the ground with my hat.... :o
I've had days like that.
hi guys, i have shot every type of lead i can get my hands on thru the years in over 35 different revolvers and over a dozen rifles, fwiw, ive never been able to tell much difference in accuracy in any of the different hardness of leads, i have purty much always cast my own and ive usually used whatever i can get my hands on, ive shot plumbers lead, roofin lead, wheel weights both old and newer, and lead from diving weights as well as ballast frome boats, ive shot lead from phone booths and evrything except battery lead.
the patch, if proper, will engage the rifling and ive never had a leading problem either with a properly patched ball, i do try when possible, to use the softer lead in the revolvers as the rifling is engaged by the projectile only, but lead is getting harder to get and i will shoot what i can get.
im not tryin to come off as a know it all, just sayin what has worked fer me , proven and time tested, i try to keep it in mind that the folks who shot these guns originally, didnt have acess to all the super powders, lubes, etc thaat we do today, yet they managed to keep the food on the table as well as the enemies at bay so i try to go with the keep it simple outlook on all this stuff, the mountain men woulda throwed their hawkens in the first creek they came to, if they hadda found a repeatin rifle at the time anyhow ROFL ROFL ROFL
I think hard balls of any material (brass, we, glass, etc) would work better in shallow grooved barrels vs deeper - say .010 to .013. Lead balls w a tight patch fit will flow into the grooves and help the patch seal as well as adding "traction" for the rifling.
TC
I've heared tell a brass balls, but never knowed anyone ta own up to it. Seems like a brass PRB in a ML would be somewhat like a dangreous game solid shot round. ???? ....Tom (who's only shot lead)
I have heard of hunters using antimony to increase hardness of large caliber balls. The hard balls would have better penetration on very large game, like a solid bullet on African game. On the other hand, there is absolutely no need to use a harder alloy on a caliber like a .32. Of course, if someone gave me say, 50 lbs of linotype (or similar) lead for free, I would want to experiment to see if I could use it in my smaller bores.
ROFL ROFL ill be happy to shoot any lead yall dont like just send it on!
Linotype is expensive and hard to come by. Why not mix it with WW or lead and come up with a hard ball without wasting the linotype. You can also trade it 1 to 2 or 3 at least for lead.
As to a hard ball that is all use any more soft lead can go splat when it large bone, a hard ball will go through.
Forrest
Quote from: gunmaker on February 22, 2013
I've heared tell a brass balls, but never knowed anyone ta own up to it. Seems like a brass PRB in a ML would be somewhat like a dangreous game solid shot round. ???? ....Tom (who's only shot lead)
I too have only shot lead and soft at that. Someone on another forum was playing - er excuse me that would sound exactly wrong - experimenting using round balls made of brass. Think it was in search of an alternative if the radical tree huggers and anti liberty crowd get lead banned. IIRC he obtained what was described as acceptible accuracy and I believe even harvested a doe.
TC (another Tom)
That fellow goes by Roundball and he is/was a member here as well. Last posted here back in June
I tried shooting RB from wheel weights as well as Lee REAL slugs. The RB were very hard to load while the REAL could not be loaded. This was for a .50 with .490 RB and commercial patches. I'm staying with lead and using ww for center fire calipers.
Quote from: West Texan on March 01, 2013
I tried shooting RB from wheel weights as well as Lee REAL slugs. The RB were very hard to load while the REAL could not be loaded. This was for a .50 with .490 RB and commercial patches. I'm staying with lead and using ww for center fire calipers.
West Texan:
The trouble you had using WW is from the different rate that WW will shrink at thus your .490 mould would throw about a .494 to a 495 ... a .600 mould will throw a .605 you would need a thinner patch or a .485 mould.
Forrest
Forrest thanks for posting this information thmbsup
[hmm] As I was trying to figure this out!
I had figured that the patch engaged the rifling so the hardness would not matter all that much but if the ball is larger that makes good sense!
Going to have to invest in some dial calipers after all.....
Moulds are made with the assumption that roundballs will be cast from pure or nearly pure lead and centerfire bullets will be cast from hardened lead and the cavities are cut accordingly.
Adding tin and antimony will make a larger casting, it is not a lot, but it will make a difference when loading.
Yes, you will need a smaller mould or a thinner patch when casting with hard lead compared to soft lead and a
REAL, Maxi or Minie may be too hard and oversized to work if cast with hard lead because the moulds and the design are for soft lead.
Quote from: West Texan on March 01, 2013
I tried shooting RB from wheel weights as well as Lee REAL slugs. The RB were very hard to load while the REAL could not be loaded. This was for a .50 with .490 RB and commercial patches. I'm staying with lead and using ww for center fire calipers.
Also keep in mind that REAL stands for
rifling
engaged
at
loading so using hardened lead means that you are essentially having to size a bullet at the muzzle without the advantage of using a press.