The title says it all,i am buying a .50 cal Renegade Hunter Rifle off of Renegade the poster on here.And i'm wondering what i need to clean and shoot the rifle,like what is necessary for cleaning or shooting and what is either extra accessories or things you think might make something easier ect.This weeks paycheck will be going towards the rifle,and next weeks will be going towards gear to clean and shoot said rifle.
Wondering what you knowledgable bunch of folks opinion is on this,thanks.
One thing I find handy is a "Range Box". Since I shoot multiple calibers mine is a rather large tackle box.
But my wife has just a small one, one of the single tray types.
These are great for all the things you will acquire along the way, spare nipples, extra patches, brushes, balls, etc.
Anything not immediately need for shooting can go in the box and be ready to go, and be easily found.
Not everything needs to go in your bag, and this is an easy way to organize it.
And a nipple wrench! A very neccessary item for many things.
Cleaning items needed. A cleaning jag of proper cal, a cleaning solution,
lube and cleaning patches.
Now I personally perfer the old GI cleaning patches as they are littel thicker and a lot tougher than most of the other patches I have used. I also use a metal cleaning/range rod with a T handle on it.
As Dogshirt suggested a range box is very handy. In my case as I shoot very thing for 32 to 62 cal rifles shot guns and cap and ball revlovers. And it seems that I been nominated club gun smith/supply point my range box is a machinist toll box.
Some other items you should thing about are a ball puller and a patch worm.
I am sure there some things I have forgoten, so the rest of you folks jump in with any thing I forgot.
I have seen a range rod mentioned before,will it take the place of my ram rod?Or is it a rod where you can screw a Jag and other items into in order to clean,pull a ball ect?Also should i shoot Conicals or patched balls?Or is this more preference than anything?I THINK with conicals you don't have to have patches to go with them,but they cost more.
I only use my range rod for cleaning, pulling balls and such. They are usually longer than a regular ramrod and
give you more to grip. But I have an unbreakable ramrod, so I'm not concerned with the possibilty of it breaking when I load at the range or rendezvous. But some solutions for swabbing out your bore can leave your hands and rod
quite slick, and it can sometimes be a challange to get grip enough on your ramrod to pull it out.
I believe TCs have a 1:48 twist, and you could shoot either RB or conicals. But as you pointed out, RB is much cheaper to shoot, about 1/4-1/3 the cost of conicals.
I would ask Renegade what the rifle prefers and go from there. Also, if you are just starting out in Muzzleloading, I would suggest starting with patched round ball. Besides, if you attend any black powder shoots, Roundball is the only projectile allowed, at least around my area. Best to get proficient with patched roundball, and experiment with conicals later. Look for black powder clubs in you area, attend a shoot and learn. Just like here on TMC, the riflemen at the black powder shoots will be only too glad to help a new shooter. And you will learn alot first hand. Sort of like "on the job training".
http://www.nmlra.org/clubs.asp?WhichState=TN
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 06, 2012...i'm wondering what i need to clean and shoot the rifle,like what is necessary for cleaning or shooting and what is either extra accessories or things you think might make something easier ect. Wondering what you knowledgeable bunch of folks opinion is on this,thanks.
Here's what a range rod looks like; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-900079 I prefer one that has a free spinning handle as it allows the cleaning patches to follow the rifling and really clean the bore well. This will take the place of your ramrod but learn how to use it to load with in case you forget the range rod at home or are out hunting. A large tackle box, wooden tool box or anything in between will work as a range box to keep everything together but I would pick up a couple of old hinged tin boxes such as are used by Altoids and Fisheman's Friend cough drops for keeping small things inside. Extra jags, nipples, wedges or patches go inside the tins and these fit handily into your shooting bag in case you decide to use one. Some shooting events feature stages that require the shooter to stand at the firing line and load from a bag, so you may want to think about either buying one or making your own. A short starter is another item that isn't necessary but makes loading easier and can be made at home. Last is your powder container, which you don't need but makes things easier and can even be a distinct part of your outfit and persona should you wish to go that route. You can pour powder from the can into the powder measure, then into the barrel (
never pour directly into the barrel from
any container) or use a powder container such as a horn, metal/wooden flask. If you get a powder horn I recommend one with a push button spout but again, do not pour powder directly into the barrel from your powder container. Here is the spout that I am referring to; http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=16336
I recommend that you get powder horn or a powder flask as most clubs (at least in my area) will not allow an open powder can on or near the firing line for saftey reasons.
Quote from: old salt on July 06, 2012
I recommend that you get powder horn or a powder flask as most clubs (at least in my area) will not allow an open powder can on or near the firing line for saftey reasons.
I hadn't thought about that. Yep, you will eventually need some type of powder container.
I am NOT going against what William says, I am not. I use flasks with pre-measure spouts from time to time,
but the push button tip on a horn just looks wrong to me. PURELY a matter of aesthetics, not any thing else. I just like the look of a horn with a wooden stopper better. Just my $0.02 on that one.
A powder flask with interchangeable spouts is a good way to go, but you must STILL pour into another measure or container! I/WE can't stress this enough! DO NOT pour straight into the barrel!
Thanks everyone,i prefer my powder flask to look like this: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Loading-Accessories%7C/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104436180/Pedersoli-Tubular-Powder-Flask/734693.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-black-powder-loading-accessories%2F_%2FN-1100209&WTz_l=SEO%3Bcat104436180#BVRRWidgetID nothing fancy but it appeals to me.My paycheck this week isn't enough for the gun only $177,i sent Renegade a e-mail telling him i made less than i thought i was.But next week i will definitely have enough for the gun so i'm hoping he can wait 6 days for me to send him the money,so right now i'm thinking of buying patches,balls,stuff to clean with anything i can for the gun with this paycheck.And next paycheck if Renegade is willing to wait of course i will then buy the gun.
That is a good, sturdy powder flask and should serve you well.
Thanks William,so i have atleast picked one good item out so far lol.
I have a CVA flask that looks exactly like that one that I have had for 35 years. It still functions just
fine. It won't take some of my bigger spouts, but since I pour into a measure anyway, I just leave the 25 gr
spout I use for the pistol on it. A very functional piece of gear.
Hey everyone got a e-mail back from Renegade and he's fine with it.So i'm going to try and buy what i need to shoot/clean the gun with this paycheck.From what i know balls,patches whether pre-lubed or not,and caps seem to be the cheapest thing.Powder,range rod ect. seems to be the most expensive if you will.If you guys could make a list with possible links (not necessary) i will try and have atleast the majority here by this coming Friday which is when my paycheck arrives.Thanks for all the help so far.
Good advice from all so far, but here is how I would prioritize the purchases and why:
Range box: Get something with at least one shelf with dividers (two shelves is better) and make sure it has a good latch. You will need it for the stuff you will accumulate and for extra patches, lube, balls etc. You can also shoot from the box until you can get a bag.
Cleaning jag: It will need to have 10 x32 threads unless Renegade tells you otherwise, and do not start shooting until you have one because after you shoot you MUST clean. This is not optional.
Powder measure: You need to know how much powder you are shooting and an adjustable measure is best.
Shooting supplies: Flask or horn, powder, patches, balls, lubes..... It is fine to start with the commercial prelubed patches, but you may want to find a cheaper way to shoot later. Get some shooting experience before you start looking for cheaper ways and it gives you time to talk and listen when you are around more experienced shooters.
Short starter: They make loading so much easier and they are fairly easy to make or not too expensive to buy.
Nipple wrench: You WILL NEED IT.
Later you will probably want to get a range rod/ cleaning/ loading rod. It is not necessary, but is a wonderful convenience.
Bore protector for the loading/cleaning rod: minimizes wear and tear on the muzzle.
Cleaning solution: Water, soapy water, moose milk or a commercial black powder cleaning solution. They all work, there are plenty of variations and possibilities.
Cleaning patches: Commercial kind, or cut up flannel or T-shirt material works great.
Some kind of storage lube/bore oil: YOU DON"T WANT A RUSTY GUN!!! and you don't want most of the gun oils that are made for centerfire.
Old tooth brush: To get into the corners around the nipple when you are cleaning.
There are some other things, but these are what I see as important a would not want to be without.
Along the way if you hook up with a good club you will make some friends and have a lot of fun shooting. I DO recommend that you check out and join a local club.
Thanks for the great list FlintBoomer!I don't think there is any clubs near me,the closest one that was posted was still over 2 and a half hours away.I live in Morristown,which is a city with 30,000 people or so and we don't even have a shooting range =0 we have one for shotguns but that's it.And the surrounding counties are even smaller than my city at around 7,000 people,Knoxville i know has a shooting range as it has over 100,000 population,but it is also 1 1/2-2 hours away.I have some friends here that are experienced hunters so i'm sure they will know how to shoot this gun and offer advice.
Another thing i am wondering about is how often should i completely break down this gun?Or should just removing the nipple,barrel and stock to soak in warm soapy water (then scrub and spray with WD-40) be enough to clean this gun?Also to use Crisco,Rem Oil,or Bore Butter? As a storage lube/bore oil be enough?Thanks for pointing out that the cleaning jag will have to be 10x32 threads,i will ask Renegade if that is the size of cleaning thread/jag that i will need.As far as a range box goes i don't have one with shelves i just have a plain old Tackle Box will that serve me well right now?
It is a law of Nature that you WILL out-grow whatever you start out with as a range box! ;D
Cleaning patches can be purchased but are much more expensive than making yourself. I prefer cotton flannel but old t-shirts will work too. Get a sturdy nipple wrench like this one; http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=14032 or like this; http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_100_356&products_id=7633&osCsid=8b43dac5bde4c30add574cd91377e3c6 but avoid the flimsy metal tubes with the slots cut out of the ends because the soon loose their shape and don't grip the nipple tight. You may want to get a nipple pick or even a vent pick for a flintlock to clear debris from the nipple while you are out shooting, it comes in handy. There is a difference between patch lube and rust prevention oil although some manufactures market them as one and the same, so that is why I suggested that you get pre-lubed shooting patches to start out with. Rem. oil does fine as a storage oil but is for after cleaning the bore with soap and water. One or two drops of liquid dish soap in a pail of water is all you need, then use a cleaning patch on the jag to pump soapy water in and out of the barrel with the breech end submerged just above the nipple hole. Remove the nipple every time before cleaning and put it in a small jar with soapy water while you clean the barrel, rinse and dry thoroughly before putting it back in, with a very small drop of oil on the threads. Like I said, I prefer Birch-wood Casey Barricade, but Rem. Oil works decently enough. I am not a fan of WD-40 for long term storage although it does make for a good cleaner. You need not pull the lock everytime you clean but it's good to know how to do it, plus you should inspect it once a year anyway. One drop of oil on the moving parts is all that is needed. Once you get settled on a good powder charge and are familiar with your new rifle you can try different shooting patch material and lubes, cleaning solutions, whatever. You've got the powder flask so now is your range box. There is a dizzying array of them; http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_100_350 but a plastic tackle box works just as well, plus there are numerous plans for them on the internet if you have the time and space to build one yourself. Here are some other option in that respect that you may want to look at;
http://www.cmcgov.com/store/pc/DAC-TOOL-BOX-TWO-DRAWER-WOOD-p4451.htm?gclid=CJPmnr_EiLECFUNrtgodxwYYIA
http://compare.ebay.com/like/180892896844?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/t_10153_12605?tName=wood-tool-box.html
Lastly, there is the short starter, and again I am going to recommend that you either build one yourself, purchase one from one of our forum members or buy one, and a bore guide on your short starter and range rod helps keep the wear down to a minimum.
http://possibleshop.com/s-s-short-starter.html
If it turns out you need 8/32 thread, I have them. Also just about everything else you might need...
Quote from: old salt on July 06, 2012
I recommend that you get powder horn or a powder flask as most clubs (at least in my area) will not allow an open powder can on or near the firing line for saftey reasons.
What you can do if money is an issue right off, is make a spout from the lid of the powder can. Find an empty brass casing from a 30-30 or something similar & another from a 9mm or so. What you want is the pistol casing to be a tight fit over the rifle casing. Drill out the base of your "spout". Drill a hole in the cap as close to the size of the rifle casing as possible, a little undersized is best. Push the casing thru, then seal with epoxy or something similar. This was made with a .357 case for the spout & a .40 S & W for a cap...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr223/Sheasmtn/spout.jpg)
Excellent pointer from Rev about the spout.
I prefer to make them from a .308 or .30-06 case cut in half and the back half discarded, then drill or punch the cap and solder or epoxy in place. A rimmed case will give you a solid stop for the case if you drill the cap a little oversize and push it through, but I like to put the cardboard disc back into the cap for a better seal when pouring. Either way will make a good temporary flask and used later for a pour spout into your horn or flask.
If you get a traditional flask DO NOT remove the three little screws that hold the head in place! Use the pour spout to fill it or a traditional horn through the hole. With the tube flask that you described, just screw off the head or the bottom and pour the powder in.
A 380 auto case works very well as a cap on a .308 or .30-06 case and a 9mm will work on the slightly longer neck of a .30-30 case.
Thanks for all the tips and links.Renegade is nice enough to send me a Cleaning Jag with the gun,and it is 10x32 threads just to let you know,and will any range/cleaning rod enable me to screw a jag,ball or patch puller on the end of it?Just curious.So removing the barrel and soaking it and the stick with warm soapy water and cleaning it with patches ect should be enough cleaning wise?I just thought about what someone on here (potentially this exact board) said about a cheap flask,using a plain old mustard container that you squeeze mustard out of?That should work right?I have enough money to buy one of course,but saving money is always a good thing.A range rod,powder,and flask seem to cost the most.I will check to see if i can buy black powder locally or not.But a short starter,patches whether lubed or not and balls are extremely cheap.Once again thanks so much for all the helpful replies!
Many range rods are 8x32, some are 10x32, so be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.
Rod tips on muzzleloaders can be 8x32 or 10x32 depending on brand and you can get converters, but it is best to keep everything the same especially at first. A few rifle rods are 10x32 on one end and 8x32 on the other end.
Musket threads are a completely different story.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 07, 2012
Thanks William,so i have atleast picked one good item out so far lol.
excellent choice Isaac thmbsup I've had mine for 6 years.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 link=topic=14903.msg114222#msg114222 date=1341734548 Cleaning Jag with the gun,and it is 10x32 threads
color=blue]So, just make sure that any additional jags, patch worms, ball pullers, etc., have 10/32 threads on them or be able to accept 10/32 threads like the range rod[/color] I just thought about what someone on here (potentially this exact board) said about a cheap flask,using a plain old mustard container that you squeeze mustard out of? Just about anything that safely contains the powder and allows you to easily pour it into your powder measure will work. Many ways of doing that as well, from the traditional cows horn, hollowing out elk antlers, turning wood cylinders and any other natural material, right up to re-purposing modern items. Here's a small powder flask that I bought some months ago that is small enough to fit inside my shooting bag but holds enough powder for an entire range session; http://www.ebay.com/itm/360424199534?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D360424199534%26_rdc%3D1 I have enough money to buy one of course,but saving money is always a good thing.A range rod,powder,and flask seem to cost the most.I will check to see if i can buy black powder locally or not.But a short starter,patches whether lubed or not and balls are extremely cheap.Once again thanks so much for all the helpful replies!
One other thing that you might buy is a spout for the powder can itself, which make it much easier to transfer powder to your flask. Wait until you know which kind of powder you will be using as the lids are different sizes. Use one like this for Goex type powder; http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/1231/1/POWDER-CAP-V, or this one; http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1231/1/POWDER-CAP-B, This shows the difference between what goes on the can as opposed to what fits on a plastic bottle of Pyrodex, Triple 7 or other subs; http://www.rmcoxyoke.com/inc/sdetail/197 As always, I hope this helps.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 07, 2012
Another thing i am wondering about is how often should i completely break down this gun?Or should just removing the nipple,barrel and stock to soak in warm soapy water (then scrub and spray with WD-40) be enough to clean this gun?Also to use Crisco,Rem Oil,or Bore Butter? As a storage lube/bore oil be enough?Thanks for pointing out that the cleaning jag will have to be 10x32 threads,i will ask Renegade if that is the size of cleaning thread/jag that i will need.As far as a range box goes i don't have one with shelves i just have a plain old Tackle Box will that serve me well right now?
Some of what you should do depends on how often you shoot. Bore butter and WD40 are fine for short term storage but not long term, especially in humid climates, olive oil and canola oil are ok for mid term if you store the gun muzzle down, but only short term if you store muzzle up because they drain slowly into the breech and can create a hard plug of fouling. Crisco is ok short term but gets sticky after a month or so and makes it hard to load the first shot unless you swab it out with alcohol before shooting.
This forum is called Traditional Muzzleloading on the CHEAP for a reason. If you already have a box that you can use but it is not perfect for the job, USE IT ANYWAY! I started with a used fishing tackle box and another friend started with a .50 cal ammo box because they were what we had and we didn't have much money.
Thanks for all the helpful replies everyone,i just was thinking and i'm wondering if i need a flask for sure at this stage?I will be shooting at either my friends house or on one of my uncle's friends property,so i'm not sure a flask is 100% needed?Couldn't i just keep the container that the powder comes in 20-30 feet or so away from the muzzleloader and fill the powder measure up to 50 grains or so then go back to the firearm?Trying to save money anyway i can lol,i still need to but some type of cleaning solution to go along with hot soapy water,a cleaning brush (or two) cleaning patches,sgort starter,nipple wrench,patches to shoot with,balls and powder.So pretty much i need to buy everything still.
Just trying to go through what is 100% necessary right now and what is a get later maybe kind of thing.Now i'm more confused on what type of lube to use to store the gun =/ i would LIKE to shoot the gun either every week or every other week but not sure if this would always be possible.So now i'm not 100% on which lube to choose.I still haven;t checked to see if local gun shops or even if wal mart (doubt is) sells black powder or black powder substitutes to shoot a muzzleloading bp rifle.I should probablly start on that.
With one muzzleloader to shoot, I dont think you need to worry about long term storage. WD40 will work fine.
I'll add my two cents worth here... when looking at items you think you might need there are a variety of sites out there for supplies, for example I got my range rod from October country, and my nicest forn from Stumblin Wolf,(one of the members here). Powder measures etc can be found here by various people and Rev is a great source of information and items (If he does not deal in the item he can tell you where to get it!)
Look, read, and then ask here about anyone you want to deal with. The membership will as you can see have their own ideas about almost everything, but you will have a wealth of information to sift through to help you make an educated decision.
As for the push button pour spout as was mentioned earlier... IMHO safety is a primary condsideration and I have seen an individual walk by me with his horn/flask tipped down and pouring out a trail of powder.... not good!
Also you asked about total breakdown of the rifle - I break my rifle down after every envent I go to and clean and oil everything... during the events I go to (usually 3-5 day events) I use boiling water and dawn dish soap to clean the barrel without disassebling the internal parts (my main rifle is pinned not wedged) but if I am having a sticky lock or trigger trouble I am prepared to take them all apart at the event. I shoot a lot here at the home camp and so I use sweet oil (common vegitable or olive oil straight from the bottle) to lubricate my rifles... If you are not going to use them for a month or so this may not be a good idea as it will gum up after a time....
Thanks Red Badger,i had no idea some members on here deal in Black Powder items.I'd rather buy some of the stuff i need from people on this board than online companies.I think either the Oil or WD-40 will be alright,if i have anything to say about it i'm gonna shoot my rifle once every week (i wish more).
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 09, 2012
Thanks Red Badger,i had no idea some members on here deal in Black Powder items.I'd rather buy some of the stuff i need from people on this board than online companies.I think either the Oil or WD-40 will be alright,if i have anything to say about it i'm gonna shoot my rifle once every week (i wish more).
By all means buy what you need from the folks here that make them, I posted the links so that you could see what was being referred to, not to get you to purchase from that particular dealer, although things like the range rod might only be available that way.
I personally have had good results with Hoppe's Elite gun oil. It SEEMS a bit epensive when you look at the
price, but I have used the same 2 oz bottle for a over year, on multiple guns, inside AND out, and am just
now getting ready to buy another.
Hoppe's has been around for ever, and their products are great. Some of their new generation of products
are even more so!
Good info here but I went back to the original post where it says "i am buying a .50 cal Renegade Hunter Rifle' and have a question. Is this barrel a 1/45 twist TC Renegade barrel or a 1/28 twist TC or GM drop in Hunter barrel? If the latter, the barrel will probably shoot bullets or conicals better than patched round ball.
Good Luck
TC
Quote from: Rocklock on July 09, 2012
Good info here but I went back to the original post where it says "i am buying a .50 cal Renegade Hunter Rifle' and have a question. Is this barrel a 1/45 twist TC Renegade barrel or a 1/28 twist TC or GM drop in Hunter barrel? If the latter, the barrel will probably shoot bullets or conicals better than patched round ball.
Good Luck TC
If I remember correctly, the Renegade barrel is a 1:48 twist but I don't know what kind of rifling TC used so it may shoot both well or have a preference for RB only.
My 1/45 was a typo that should have been 1/48. I only knew of a TC Renegade barrel with 1/48 twist. Never heard of a "Renegade Hunter". But TC may have made em. If so what is the twist? And if a GM "Hunter" it is 1/28 twist. What is the twist?
1/48 TC barrels with relatively shallow grooves made by button rifling will shoot RBs OK but usually with moderate powder charges in .50 bores. In my experience, not many fast twist barrels with shallow rifling will shoot well with RBs unless they are smaller bore like .32 or .36.
TC
Yes, it has a 1:48 twist rate and with the shallow cut rifling should be quite accurate with the right conical as well as PRB with a powder charge of between 70-90 grains, but each rifle is an individual and half the fun is finding out it's likes and dislikes.
Thanks everybody,i only plan to shoot 50 grains of black powder per shot since i am just target shooting and not from that far away.Would keeping the container of powder 20-30 feet away from the gun and taking the powder measure that far away to fill it safe?If so i will stay away from buying a flask for now.Since Renegade is nice enough to send me a Jag with the gun i am going to buy a range/cleaning rod (are they the same thing?) to save my ram rod.And buy some cleaning brushes along with pre lubed patches,caps,cleaning patches,WD-40 or some type of storage lube,and balls and i should be good to go.Along with a powder measure and powder of course,what should i use to wipe the outside of the gun to prevent rust?Would any gun oil work?
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 10, 2012
Thanks everybody,i only plan to shoot 50 grains of black powder per shot since i am just target shooting and not from that far away.Would keeping the container of powder 20-30 feet away from the gun and taking the powder measure that far away to fill it safe?If so i will stay away from buying a flask for now.Since Renegade is nice enough to send me a Jag with the gun i am going to buy a range/cleaning rod (are they the same thing?) to save my ram rod.And buy some cleaning brushes along with pre lubed patches,caps,cleaning patches,WD-40 or some type of storage lube,and balls and i should be good to go.Along with a powder measure and powder of course,what should i use to wipe the outside of the gun to prevent rust?Would any gun oil work?
You should start with 50 grains but learn how to work up the best load for your rifle as I suspect you will need a bit more powder for best accuracy. Why buy cleaning brushes? I think that you will be fine using cleaning patches on the jag with the soap and water method. If you have a spout for your powder can that allows you to fill the powder measure safely away from the firing line then I think you will be alright, just be careful. Now, a matter of personal opinion. WD-40 does fine for cleaning things like the inside of your lock and other places that fouling can build up or removing water from a gun that you've dunked in the lake but for lubrication and rust prevention there are much better things. Good old Remington oil does fine, as does Hoppes, Barricade (my favorite) and similar products. Just a few drops of oil on a cleaning patch swabbed in the bore should do, then use the same on all metal parts. The trick is in not overdoing it in the bore because any leftover oil will combine with the next fresh powder charge and render it inert, that is why you should swab the bore with a cleaning patch dampened with alcohol before each new range session which will remove any excess oil.
I second William.WD40 is a great moisture displacer but not so hot a lubricant.Ballistol works great.But so does the natural patch lubes.Any more i just clean with water and oil up every thing with either tc bore butter or young coutry when i can find it.You'll notice over time bore fouling will get easier to clean when using non petroleum based lube.
I think I need to point out that when referring to "lube" it means what is being put on the shooting patch (patched round ball-PRB) rather than what is being used to lubricate moving parts such as the inside of the lock. When lubricating or preventing rust on the metal parts, use things like Rem Oil, Barricade, etc., but for lubing the shooting patch you use things like olive oil, olive oil & beeswax, etc. Ballistol, which is mineral oil and other additives can be used both as a patch lube as well as a rust preventative and there are plenty of opinions as to using it for both. I know the mountain men, pioneers and the like never had Rem Oil or Ballistol and used bear grease for everything but they didn't make their barrels from modern steel or select their stocks from kiln dried, quarter sawn woods either, so take advantage of technology when you can.
I just assumed i would need brushes,but since i don't i am not going to buy them.I'm trying to save money but get everything that is needed,so WD-40 is basically good to spray in the barrel after you are finished cleaning the gun to dry up the water and to spray on the lock,or is WD-40 not necessary and you could use plain old rubbing alcohol in place of WD-40?After you have done that (and cleaned the gun with hot soapy water and patches of course) then you lubricate the bore and outside of the gun (including the nipple of the gun?) with Remington oil or Barristol?I believe i asked this earlier but i am about to leave for work.But should i remove the nipple of the gun everytime i clean?Or should i only remove the nipple after i have cleaned the bore,or does it matter when you remove it?
And of course before i shoot the gun i should run a patch soaked in alcohol (plain old rubbing alcohol i am assuming) to get the Barristol/Remington Oil out of the barrel.Just to make sure i am also going to swab the barrel 2-3 times with a dry patch and shoot 1-2 caps to make sure the nipple is clear.I am taking no chances lol,i believe that is everything.Besided buying a Range Rod (with a Muzzle protector?),potentially a flask if none of the Black Powder cans come with a pour spout,patches for cleaning and pre lubed ones for shooting,Barristol or Remington Oil,Alcohol,Nipple Wrench,Nipple Pick,and an Extra Nipple and Cleaning Jag,Ball Puller and Patch Puller,and Balls and i should be ready to go.Does that sound about right?Thanks once again everyone.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 10, 2012
I just assumed i would need brushes,but since i don't i am not going to buy them.I'm trying to save money but get everything that is needed,so WD-40 is basically good to spray in the barrel after you are finished cleaning the gun to dry up the water and to spray on the lock,or is WD-40 not necessary and you could use plain old rubbing alcohol in place of WD-40? Yes, rubbing alcohol will remove the powder fouling followed by Rem Oil, Ballistol, Barricade or whatever rust preventative you choose
Should i remove the nipple of the gun everytime i clean? Remove the nipple before you place the breech end into the soapy water and pump the water in and out with your range rod fitted with the jag and a cleaning patch. You will see the water turn dark gray to from all the powder fouling that the pumping action removes. Pour the dirty water out and replace with clean and give it a few more pumps, remove the barrel and carefully withdraw the rod. Replace the cleaning patch a few times and them let it dry. Using warm to hot water will speed the drying, or you can use WD-40 to drive out the rest. Then when it's all dry, a drop or two of rust preventative oil on a clean, dry patch and swab the barrel with it to get the bore evenly coated.
And of course before i shoot the gun i should run a patch soaked in alcohol (plain old rubbing alcohol i am assuming) to get the Barristol/Remington Oil out of the barrel. Yes
Just to make sure i am also going to swab the barrel 2-3 times with a dry patch and shoot 1-2 caps to make sure the nipple is clear.I am taking no chances lol,i believe that is everything. You got it!
Besided buying a Range Rod (with a Muzzle protector?), Bore guide, it is to keep the rod from wearing out the rifling at the muzzle (crown)
Thanks for the tips William!Now all i need is to but the list above and i feel confident enough to be able to shoot the gun safely,and to clean it properly.
I think you are going to do just fine. Relax and have fun with it. thmbsup
You were getting into the TOO MUCH INFORMATION mode, so make some decisions (You are doing fine.), buy some supplies, then get out and start shooting.
Have fun and let us know how the first range session goes.
Buy the way, William has done a good job of giving you the right information to make things work properly and steering you away from poorer choices. thmbsup
If you asked 30 of us (You kind of did.) how to get started and what to buy you will get 35 different answers, but you will also find that there are some basics that are pretty consistant from all of us. The other details are choices we make according to what we have been exposed to and what has worked well for us.
I agree,i was getting in to the too much information zone.I have noticed everyone recommends a Range Rod,hot soapy water to clean,and balls and patches to shoot/clean Pre-lubed or lube the patches yourself appears to be personal preference.I am going to buy the stuff in my list and will let you guys know how my first shooting session goes.Once again thanks for all the helpful information everyone,and as i've said countless times...i can't wait to shoot this gun!
I would mention one more thing that is CHEAP and easy. For MANY shooting and cleaning chores,
go to Goodwill/St. Vinnies/Value Village (what ever you have in your area) and but 1 or 2 flannel
bed sheets. For 1 or 2 bucks you can get a lot of cleaning/oiling patches. I also use it for oiling/waxing
my stocks. A very cheap investment.
That's a good idea, cheap flannel which makes for excellent cleaning patches and GP rags.
Thanks for the excellent advice,just so happens we have a goodwill here!How would you make sure the patches are the correct size for the bore ect?I have saw videos where people were using a long piece of fabric as patches for the round balls,and they cut the patches off at the Muzzle of the gun,so would it be done like that?Or is there a more exact way to make sure the patches you cut are the right size?
I use cotton flannel for cleaning patches only, I don't think that it would make good shooting patches. Pillow ticking works well as a shooting patch because of it's tight weave. Now, just because I don't think that flannel would be good for use as a shooting patch material doesn't mean that someone else is of the same opinion, it is up to the shooter to decide if it works in his or her gun or not.
That is the best way, no room for error. That being said, I use pre-cut patches, just a little more convenient.
I have used precuts and long strips cut at the muzzle both work fine in my opinion.... just don't do what I did trying to be cheap, I was cutting the patch close to the ball and scored the muzzle surface. Cut the patch so the knife does not come in contact with the rifle!
I'm going to use pre-cut patches personally.It is just more convienent in my opinion,and i don't care to spend a little extra since they are really cheap.Would the wooden ram rod work fine for cleaning and shooting the gun for now until i have enough for a range rod?If so i should be able to shoot or be close to be able to shoot by the tome the gun gets here.
wood rod SHOULD be fine but be sure to keep your hand less than a foot above the muzzle and work the rod down a little at a time. the bend of pushing from too far up is what will likely cause the wood to split and or break. it is there to load and has been used from the beginning.
Yup what Dusty said! I hae only broken 1 ramrod and it is a PITA to have to find the right wood and make a new one. Range rods are a convience but IMHO not critical until you goof up and have to pull a ball for whatever reason! Then you really want to know the guy with the CO2 Discharge system in his kit pnic
So can you screw in attachments like a jag,ball puller,patch puller ect in the wooden ram rod or is that only for a Range rod?
A wooden ramrod will have a brass "thimble" on one or both ends, one of which will be
threaded to accept attachments. Some have a jag that will screw off to accept male threaded attachments.
Since you are getting a TC Renegade if the rod is original it will have one end that is cupped for pushing the ball down and the other end will be smaller and be threaded 10x32. Most of the TC rods were very good quality strong straight grained wood and could last a lifetime if handled properly, so don't be afraid to use it.
The size that a cleaning patch should be is partly subjective, but larger than the shooting patches. Commercial black powder cleaning patches are usually about 2 inches in diameter, but if you are making your own from old shirts, sheets, etc. they just heed to fit the jag with a fair amount of overlap and in most cases a square of flannel should be cut about 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 inches. Too large a patch will be too tight fitting and can result in a stuck rod, but a cleaning patch that is too small will come off the jag and you will have to find out the hard way about ball and patch pullers.
When buying precut shooting patches they will come sized for different calibers and you can use either the .40-.49 or the .50 to .58 size in your .50 caliber rifle. I like the fit of the .40-.49 patch better when I use precuts than I do the larger .50-.58 patches in my .50.
So the ram rod will work as a cleaning rod just fine i am assuming?I believe i will use the .50-.58 cal cleaning patches in my gun just because they are labeled for that caliber,although i might switch to the .40-.49 caliber patches later on.Also i am just curious but about how big is a .50 caliber lead ball compared to modern bullets?Is it the equivalent of a modern 9mm or .45 in size?
Nope, a modern .45 round is still .45 cal and a .50 cal is still a .50 cal the only real difference is the weight of the projectile, its shape, and what it is made from. Modern bullets DO NOT WORK in a traditional ML so don't try it. You can get away with some of them in the new unmentionable muzzleloaders but we don't talk about them here pnic
Just my 2 cents worth - but I believe that OX Yoke wonder patches are the best thing going. I shoot my TC Renegade and my TC Pennsylvania hunter with them - I believe the most shots was 26 at the range -NO Wiping Between shots and NO Cleaning until the next day, NO Problems! Ran out of .490 balls so we had to quit. I use a 54 cal prelubed patch on both my .50 cal rifles and swear by this product - but it may not be welcome at all shoots. I use a .36 cal on my .32 rifle - You get the idea, I hope, one size over what caliber you are shooting. NO effect on accuracy as opposed to the proper size patch or cutting at the muzzle each time. Since I live close I use the following supplier, i buy here always...http://www.logcabinshop.com/
Hope this helps! Tim
Thanks for the link Grey,that looks like a great store for Muzzleloading.I'm just wondering how much is shipping?I would never use a modern bullet in a muzzleloading rifle EVER.I was just curious how big it is compared to a 9mm or .45 caliber bullet,i am assuming obviously that the .50 cal is bigger.I understand it is a different shape of course.
The difference in size between a 45 cal and 50 cal is 0.05 inch. The 9mm is approximately 0.353 inch. Hope this helps.
Remember: 1 caliber is .01 or 1/100 of an inch. 50 caliber is 1/2 inch or .50 inch. a .490 ball is 1/100 of an inch less than an exact 1/2 inch to allow for a patch. 45 caliber is 45/100 inch and 9mm is an undersized .38 at about .35 inch.
Now for the confusing part: many pistol calibers (like the .38 and the .380) are actually the measure of the outside diameter of the case mouth. ???
For a power comparison the .45 auto would APROXIMATELY compare to a light target load in the 50 caliber rifle. The .45 auto was loaded to roughly equate to reduced power loads in the .45 colt round and the original .45 colt round was loaded with about 40 gr powder. If I remember correctly the original load was considered too powerful and reduced to around 30-35 grains. 1 grain is 1/7000 of a pound. The .490 ball weighs about 175 gr and bullets for either of the colt .45s are about 240-250 gr. I don't shoot .45 colt or .45 auto so the bullet weight is aproximate and I have no problem with someone giving more exact figures.
That's interesting.So a .50 caliber black powder rifle loaded with just 40-50 grains of powder is pretty powerful.I can imagine what it's equivalent would be loaded with 110 grains of powder.
lets just put it this way... 1500 lb elk -175 yards (from 54 cal traditions rifle) + 100 gr 3f powder = meat on table....
Wow,i am assuming you can hunt virually anything in North America with a .50 cal?I know the 1500 Elk you took was with a .54,but i am assuming the .50 would work just as well.Although you might have to be a little closer?What is a .50 suited for as hunting goes?I am assuming Deer?I can't see someone using it to hunt stuff like squirrels,rabbits ect.,not saying it isn't possible of course.Great shot by the way,175 yard shot and you still hit it (susp) i hope to be that great of shot someday.
The .50 caliber is primarily a deer caliber, with elk possible if you're a good shot and careful of the shots you take. It doesn't allow a lot of margin for error on an animal of that size. It's a fine black bear caliber but for any of the larger species with claws and teeth you'd better have more gun and something in the way of a backup gun. Plenty of grizzlies were killed with muzzleloaders in the .50 caliber class, but the members of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, armed mainly with .54 caliber rifles and a number of them quite good shots, decided they'd had quite enough of grizzlies after the third or fourth run-in with them. Also, I say "plenty of grizzlies were killed" but more than one unfortunate hunter found out that what qualified as a "big bore" back east (like a .50 caliber) only annoyed ol' Ephraim.
The .32 and .36 calibers are small-game calibers, suited for most anything a .22 LR works for. The .40 is a mid-sized caliber, a bit large for squirrel and rabbit, a bit small for a lot of deer in this country, but possibly the most inherently accurate caliber going. The .45 compares in its purposes to cartridges like the .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, or .257 Roberts -- plenty for whitetailed deer in the hands of a good shot, a bit undersized when you go after big western mulies. The .50 caliber equates pretty well to the .30-06 and similar rounds, the .54 to cartridges in the .338 Winchester class. The .58 and larger bores can be loaded down a bit for work on deer, or loaded up to the point that they'll reliably anchor the biggest North American game if the shooter does his part.
Please bear in mind, when I compare muzzleloading calibers to cartridges, I'm referring to their application, NOT to the ranges you can expect them to reliably kill game at. Also, if you plan to hunt it's adviseable to disregard everything everyone here says about the ranges at which they've killed elk, deer, and other animals. Not that they're being dishonest about it, but only that what counts is what YOU can do with your gun, which is something you can only determine by going out, shooting it, and honestly evaluating your skill level.
Have fun and be safe.
Good knowledge and wise advice, Mongrel. dntn
Thanks Mongrel,i understand with muzzleloaders generally you have to get closer to the game in which you want to take.For a .50 caliber muzzleloader to compare to a 30-06 i am surprised that more people don't use muzzleloaders.For one they are in my opinion atleast beautiful guns,cheap to shoot and maintain,and the history and mechanisms behind them are just a bonus.Once again Mongrel that was a great explanation and a wealth of information.
I aso agree with Mike, I woould not have taken the shot on the elk but was in a bad spot and could not get any closer and he was broadside to me giving a great target picture. I would not do this on an average hunt but this was my last day and I really needed the meat.
Also I wonder of all the individuals who used a .50 on a grizz, how many did not survive to tell the tale after getting the critters attention? pnic
Quote from: Red Badger on July 16, 2012
I aso agree with Mike, I woould not have taken the shot on the elk but was in a bad spot and could not get any closer and he was broadside to me giving a great target picture. I would not do this on an average hunt but this was my last day and I really needed the meat.
Also I wonder of all the individuals who used a .50 on a grizz, how many did not survive to tell the tale after getting the critters attention? pnic
Nothing wrong with having taken the shot -- you made an educated decision based on what you knew you could do with that rifle. I have no doubt, also, that had the shot failed to put the animal down, you'd have been out as long as it took to follow it up and finish the job. You're precisely the sort of shooter who CAN push the limits and still be responsible. My cautions are aimed at the guy who's new to the sport and has no way of knowing better -- or the one who absolutely OUGHT to know better but proceeds to try it, anyway -- and will go out and take too long a shot because someone else said it could be done. There'd be a whole lot less wounded animals if we each did our shooting according to our OWN abilities and put the time in to have an honest idea what those abilities are.
I agree Mongrel,you should only take shots that are in the capabilities of what you can shoot and kill.If i ever do go hunting i will practise and wait for the perfect shot before i fire,i am a big animal lover so if i ever do go hunting i hope that it's death will be instant.I know that is most likely not always possible,a funny thing i read on another site (can't remember the name,i'm sure this has been discussed before.) is they were talking how a patch and ball is ineffective at killing animals as quick as Sabot rounds.I have heard arguments for one or both,but from what i remember in the Civil War when a round ball would hit a soldier in the arm it would sometimes shoot it clean off!In my opinion something that can shoot a man's arm off will kill an animal quickly and efficiently.
The PRB in a caliber appropriate to the size of the animal is a sure-thing killer if the shooter does his part. This means practicing religiously, till you're sure of what both you and your gun are capable of doing, and then picking and choosing your shots based on those capabilities.
I'm also an animal lover, but my metabolism is such that my doctor very seriously assures me that, without massive protein intake, I'd die of malnutrition within a very short time. I happen to love meat as much as I do most of the cute critters who pack it around on their bones. I'm also, usually, financially strapped, so the choice between several months' worth of meat for a $24 deer tag, or enriching the owner of the local market by hitting his meat department every day, is pretty simple. And, there is no way of removing meat from a critter's bones -- humanely, anyway -- without killing it first. This all adds up to me being a very careful hunter who sticks to fairly dense woods cover because it guarantees that any shot that can be taken at all will be at close range. In that scenario a soft lead .490" round ball is almost instantly lethal with even reasonably good shot placement.
We wander from the original topic, what one needs for the cleaning and shooting of a .50 caliber muzzleloading rifle, but in a sense we're right on target. It doesn't hurt a bit to include an attitude that one should strive to be a responsible, competent shooter for reasons not only of safety, but because at some point the situation might arise where something more important is at stake that punching holes in paper and maintaining the rifle you do it with.
.....
Thanks for the information Mongrel and William.Even though i am an animal lover i will admit that Deer meat is delicious.The main thing i am worried about when (i am starting to think of the possibility of hunting) i go hunting although it will probably be a bit.Is killing the animal quickly,i DO NOT and would most likely feel really bad if i either just wounded or if the animal suffered.That is where practising and proper shot placement comes in though,i do like the idea of months worth of meat from one (?) or two deer kills.
Also the website from what i can remember mentioning how prb are not as effective as sabot rounds did not use numbers to argue their point,from what i can remember that is.
I have almost always used a (TC) maxi ball for my hunting simply because my favorite hunting rifle will not shoot prb. That said, when I have used prb with other rifles they have worked quite well.
I used to hear from hardline traditionalists that the maxi was good for nothing and a person should only use prb because the maxi was too heavy, did not expand and would not work on game. Tell that to the dozen or so elk I have killed with it or to the handful of deer. I never used those other things with the plastic parts, and do not intend to and they are illegal here in Colorado anyway.
I do love animals, whether in the field or in the cooking pot, but I also believe that a hunter needs to do his part to make a quick kill and this means knowing your gun and your own capibilities with it. Pass up any shot you are unsure of your ability to make cleanly and consider your maximum range to be about 2/3 of the distance at which you can consistantly hit a cheap paper plate because things are never exactly how you think you see them when in the field hunting.
I remember a day back in the mid 80`s when my father was killing hogs ( butchering day ) . he`d run out of .22`s and switched to a 7.62x39 . one hog took three shots and was not only still standing , but defiant as hell ! one well aimed shot from a .50 caliber gpr loaded with a maxi ball dropped him like he`d been poleaxed . so maxi`s perform nicely ! a buddy accidentally took two deer with one round ball , went through the ribcage of the first and most of the way through the deer twenty feet away on the other side . nice quick clean kills ! so patched round ball is more than adequate ! in both cases soft lead bullets out performed a modern jacketed round !
I used to hunt with centerfire and I can tell you that a .50 or .54 with a 80-100 gr charge will put an elk down faster than a 30-06 or a 7mm magnum if you stay within your capabilities and make a fairly good shot. The cartridges and scoped rifles will extend your range, but the elk will go farther. Deer and antelope have less body weight and will usually go down in place with a well placed shot from any of them, but not always.
Learn what you can do with your rifle and stay within it and you will make a quick, humane kill.
That takes us back to the topic of loading and cleaning. Start with light loads like 40-50 gr a .490 ball and a .010 or .015 patch. The .010 will be easier to load but after a few shots you will want to see if you can find some of your patches and look them over. If there are any holes or if there is anything besides a black ring and a patch that looks like it could be shot again go to a .015 patch. Do not be concerned with the edges of the patch, the edge is not what is riding on the rifling.
These are very facinating stories,especially where your buddy took two Deer accidentally with one lead ball!From the stories i am hearing plus just going by the size of a .490 round ball i can see how a patched round ball or a Maxi ball would be very effective on game or people if someone (hopefully not) got hit with a prb or maxi ball while breaking and entering!So for target shooting should i buy 0.10 and 0.15 patches?What will looking at the patches tell me if there is just a black ring on said patch?I know this is going off topic but is a standard hunting and fishing license all you need to go hunting?Or is there other qualifications or things you need to pass in order to legally hunt?
While a 50 caliber RB would certainly establish that your home is entered with an invitation only, you only have one shot; food for thought on that subject.
So for target shooting should i buy 0.10 and 0.15 patches?
I would buy .015 to start with as thinner patches usually aren't enough to seal in the burning powder well enough to get great accuracy, although there is always an exception to every rule.
What will looking at the patches tell me if there is just a black ring on said patch?
An even black ring on the patch indicates that there is good sealing and you have the correct thickness. If the patch is shredded or looks cut up then you have some sharp rifling in the bore and/or at the muzzle. Shredded patches can also be a sign that it is too thin.
I know this is going off topic but is a standard hunting and fishing license all you need to go hunting? Or is there other qualifications or things you need to pass in order to legally hunt?
Every state is different so you will have to check with your Department of Fish & Game/Dept of Natural Resources/Dept of Wildlife, etc. Here in Texas if you were born after a certain date you must take a hunter safety course before they will issue a hunting license and I understand that many other states have a similar requirement. Some states also prohibit the use of anything but all lead projectiles during the "primitive" hunting season and mandate certain calibers for small game or a minimum size caliber and powder charge for large game.
Thanks William,so if i buy 0.15 patches i am asuuming that should be enough where all i see on the patches is a black ring?And just to keep everyone updated Renegade has recieved my money order,the downside is of course the gun will most likely be shipped on Monday,and once i get it i will post pictures of it up here!
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 21, 2012
Thanks William,so if i buy 0.15 patches i am assuming that should be enough where all i see on the patches is a black ring?And just to keep everyone updated Renegade has received my money order,the downside is of course the gun will most likely be shipped on Monday,and once i get it i will post pictures of it up here!
Yes, you should see an even black ring on the patch but there are some rifles that do best with thinner patches, it just depends on the particular barrel. Some folks get the best accuracy using a .495 RB and an .010 patch, still others use a .020 patch and a mallet to ram the load down. I'm not one to need pinpoint accuracy so if it's difficult to load then I'll go with a thinner patch. Currently I use either a pre-cut/lubed .015 patch or pillow ticking that compresses down to .018. I find that loading takes the same amount of effort with either one but I haven't down any testing to determine which one is more accurate. For my purposes, I can use either one to hit a steel gong at 20-80 yards and it doesn't matter if the RB strikes in the middle or not, just knocks it around and I get the same number of points. I figure that if I can hit a 4 inch gong at 80 yards I can put a RB in the vital zone of any deer or hog out there at the same yardage and for me, 100 yards is my self imposed limit anyway, so I am happy.
Now, if you are using .015 patches and it takes no effort at all to seat the PRB on the powder charge you are really going to want to read your shot patches. If the black ring isn't even all around then you will definitely want to go to .020 or try a .495 ball. These are things to look into later on though, and nothing to stress out about right now. Get comfortable loading and shooting your rifle for right now, then fine tune things.
Looking forward to the pictures.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 21, 2012
Thanks William,so if i buy 0.15 patches i am asuuming that should be enough where all i see on the patches is a black ring?And just to keep everyone updated Renegade has recieved my money order,the downside is of course the gun will most likely be shipped on Monday,and once i get it i will post pictures of it up here!
I see no downside in that.... only an upside: You will soon have the gun! then you can put into practice what we have been saying!!! but remember it takes two people to shoot muzzleloaders... one to shoot and one to take the pictures for us to enjoy the event! :mini-devil-28492:
I'll see what i can do,my sister has a Cool Pix camera.You literally CAN NOT blur a picture in this camera,i have tried.So hopefully i can have her or somebody else take some cool action shots for you guys.
Hey everyone the gun arrived today!And i can say it is even better looking in person than what the pictures showed.Dan has been and continues to be very helpful with my questions just like everyone here,and i just want to say whatever gun shop he used to pack this gun they did a very very good job.I am not exaggerating when i say it took me a good 10 minutes to get everything unpacked.I will hopefully have pictures up on here later on today,it will not be action shots however as i am still buying stuff i need to shoot and clean this rifle,which i will have enough this coming paycheck.Hopefully i can take some action shots next Wednesday and Thursday.And i would just like to add that this rifle shoulders perfectly for my height.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 26, 2012
Hey everyone the gun arrived today!And i can say it is even better looking in person than what the pictures showed.Dan has been and continues to be very helpful with my questions just like everyone here,and i just want to say whatever gun shop he used to pack this gun they did a very very good job.I am not exaggerating when i say it took me a good 10 minutes to get everything unpacked.I will hopefully have pictures up on here later on today,it will not be action shots however as i am still buying stuff i need to shoot and clean this rifle,which i will have enough this coming paycheck.Hopefully i can take some action shots next Wednesday and Thursday.And i would just like to add that this rifle shoulders perfectly for my height.
Looking forward to the pics. When you say that the rifle shoulders perfectly you are really referring to the length of pull being correct (LOP) which is more about your arm length than your height. It is important though, because you need to get a firearm that fits you and not try to fit yourself to the gun instead. That was an important lesson that I learned from our own Mongrel when he built a muzzle loader for me and my specific length of pull. As a result of having a rifle that fits me perfectly, I'm having a much better time when I go shooting.
Isaac
Very happy everything arrived in good condition. thmbsup Now the fun begins. thmbsup I will call you later to tell you some of the loads that worked well for me.
Sorry for sending the pictures so late,they were too large and i finally figured out how to resize them.And if you are wondering,yes that is a washer to the right lol.One thing i was surprised about and i guess i shouldn't have been is how LARGE the opening to the Barrel is.The picture doesn't do it justice in my opinion,now i'm not sure how big or small the opening to the barrel of a .50 caliber muzzleloader is to most people,but compared to a .22 and 9mm it seems huge,i think it was a little more than 0.5 an inch wide,that doesn't sound like much but it is.More pictures to come.
Some more pictures,one more after this.That is until i get to shoot the gun :mini-devil-28492:
And the last of the pictures for now.There is no way i am going to store this gun in the closet fearing it might get scratched up.So for now it's laying in the cardboard box it came in with some of the paper arounf it just in case .
It looks great, you should have fun with it. Wait until you see the bore on someone's .62 caliber smoothbore, or look down the maw of a .72 musket, they dwarf my .54 and hurl great meteors of lead downrange. Of course even those don't come close to this monster;
http://stolzergunsmithing.webs.com/finished2boreboxlock.htm, a 2 bore rifle! This shoots a 1.275" round ball propelled by a 330-500 grain charge of FFg black powder.
But don't worry, there aren't many critters that can stand up to a well placed 50 caliber RB and it is also one of the more popular ML calibers so if your local gun shop carries any black powder supplies it will likely be in .50.
I can imagine a .62 or .72 cal (susp) and that rifle with the double barrel pnic,if i like bp firearms and i am assuming i will.I would love to eventually have a flintlock,as they were used in the Revolutionary War and are just as cool as Caplocks.
Cooler. Way cooler...
dntn Flintlocks Rule dntn
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 27, 2012
I can imagine a .62 or .72 cal (susp) and that rifle with the double barrel pnic,if i like bp firearms and i am assuming i will.I would love to eventually have a flintlock,as they were used in the Revolutionary War and are just as cool as Caplocks.
Yep, you are hooked already!
That is one fine lookin rifle ya got there Isaac. ;D thmbsup
Stay away from them rocklock thingies unless yer old enuff ta drink! They are the devil's invention
and will only lead to drink and insanity! If you feel the need to use a rock to hunt, get a sling!
Flintlocks only aggravate impatient Norwegians pnic ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
Thanks Renegade i agree thmbsup.And i also agree with Flintlocks being cool,i think they look great and the way they shoot is neat.I love this caplock though hppefully i will get to shoot it sometime next week when i'm off.
This has been posted elsewhere, but it entertains me if nothing else....
Another one of Colin Stolzer's 2-bore creations, and what happens when you touch it off with a "plinking" load of 350 grains of 2F under that golf-ball-sized chunk of lead.
Just wish it had been possible to fire a full five-round group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91gAE6tac_k
(susp) I have never saw a gun push someone that far back lol.
Like I said, that was the plinking load. Colin says a charge of roughly 500 grains of 2F is what's used for hunting. Having done the 350 grain load I'd be up for shooting the full charge -- OFFHAND -- but I wasn't going to try that to start with, not knowing what I was getting into.
Guns like that, though, aren't for normal people, and I mean that in a variety of ways. Number one, I'm not sure it's normal to enjoy being bounced around like that mini-cannon did me. Two, a more-or-less normal income could be budgeted to include a gun like that, but you don't buy one with a few extra bucks you picked up working several weeks' worth of overtime -- in other words, they don't come cheap. And, three, unless you plan to hunt the dangerous game of Africa or India there's really no earthly purpose for a rifle like that, considering the cost of just buying it to start with and then having to pay to shoot it.
Shooting someone else's, though, was a ton of fun. I may never shoot another one and I'm fine with that, but I enjoyed it just the once.
So was that you in the video Mongrel?That rifle is very nice,but i would be very hesitant to shoot it that thing has an insane amount of power.I am going to check the local Wal-Mart and gunshop here to see if they stock black powder or and bp firearm accessories,if not it's to the online shoping for me.I'm thinking of buying some Minnie Bullets as well as PRB's to shoot for my rifle,as the Minnie Balls/Bullets seem pretty neat as well.
You won't find real black powder at Wal-Mart (or Bass Pro or Cabela's or Dick's or most other "big box" type stores). The BATF storage requirements for the stuff are extremely strict, owing to how volatile it can be, so most sporting goods stores and stores that have sporting goods sections (Wal-Mart, Target, Meijer, etc) simply won't fool with it. What you WILL find are at least one or two varieties of synthetic or "substitute" black powder, such as Pyrodex, Shockey's Gold, Triple 7, and others. These work acceptably well in percussion guns and are generally absolutely worthless in flinters. If you opt for one of the substitutes, avoid the pellet types and buy loose powder in the can.
You'll find that actual BP, to mail order it, is fairly expensive once you factor in the haz-mat and special handling fees, if you only buy one or two cans. It pays to grit your teeth and place a larger order and just figure you're buying a lifetime's worth of gunpowder in one helping. This spreads the extra fees over a larger number of one-pound cans and lowers the cost per can.
If you know of a BP gun club in your area, many such outfits are set up to sell powder to members of the club and are usually able to order in fairly good bulk to keep costs down about as much as can be. Another trick is to hang out with as many BP shooters as possible and pool all your powder needs into one order.
Other members here will no doubt have further suggestions, since you've now introduced one of our favorite topics of discussion -- the acquisition of black powder and what methods work best to achieve that goal. There will also, no doubt, be debate as to the relative merits of "real" BP versus the substitutes. Remember that, if pyrodex or some other substitute is all your circumstances (finances, location, whatever) will allow you to get, for now, the important thing is to get out there and shoot. If it has to be with a substitute powder, so be it!
I have to disagree with Mongrel in listing Bass Pro Shops as not having real BP as the in my area does indeed carry Goex. At places like that you must ask someone in the gun department if they carry black powder as they aren't allowed to advertise if they carry it and you might just ask for Goex to begin with. If they point you to the reloading aisle or the smokeless powder then they don't know what they are doing, ask to see the manager and pose the question to him. If they do traditional black powder then it will be stored in a locked case so you have to have the person, usually the manager, to get it for you. I tell you all this because I was actually at Bass Pro shop in San Antonio, TX waiting in line to take a number during a particularly busy day at the gun department when a roving manager asked if there was something in particular I was looking for. When I told her that I needed a pound of Goex she just stared, then I said that I needed black powder she pointed at the aisle of smokeless powder, so I just smiled and took a number. There's no telling of what might have happened if I had not known any better. Anyway, that was before I knew how to order it on line and last I checked, a pound of Goex at Bass Pro was up to $24.99 plus tax. Even though you have to order 5 pounds minimum, Powder Inc.'s price per pound of Goex is $22.95 and that is with the haz-mat fee as well as shipping. I know 5 pounds sounds like a lot, and it is for most people but going in with a couple other folks makes it possible for those of us on a budget. This is another plus when joining a muzzle loader club, you automatically have a list of friends who always need more powder- ;D
Thanks for the heads-up on at least the possibility of acquiring black powder at Bass Pro, William. The nearest Bass Pro is about forty miles from me and I haven't been there in many a moon, and since I didn't see black powder in stock when I did go there I simply assumed it was like other sporting goods outfits -- as I described, just not wanting to fool with the stuff.
Fortunately I ordered a case of powder some years back and at the rate I'm NOT shooting, when they break the doors down due to the stench of my rotting carcass there will be quite a few cans left for the fire department to worry about.
Knowing the guys around here, their "worry" will be how to get the stuff out of the house without anyone seeing or a report being filed, and my stash will be put to good use driving projectiles through the ribcages of whitetailed deer.... ROFL thmbsup
Quote from: mongrel on July 30, 2012
since I didn't see black powder in stock when I did go there I simply assumed it was like other sporting goods outfits -- as I described, just not wanting to fool with the stuff.
I think there was a time that Walmart, Kmart, even JC Penny/Sears sold firearms and even Cabelas sold real BP. Don't get the wrong impression about Bass Pro Shops either, as they only stock up on muzzle loading gear right before deer season and more and more of it is blister packs of hyped up pistol bullets marketed for In@#$'s. But at least they continue to carry Goex and I'm happy to let people needing it where it can be found. It's nearly a 30 miles trip one way to the nearest store for me too.
Fortunately I ordered a case of powder some years back and at the rate I'm NOT shooting, when they break the doors down due to the stench of my rotting carcass there will be quite a few cans left for the fire department to worry about.
LOL! ROFL Knowing the guys around here, their "worry" will be how to get the stuff out of the house without anyone seeing or a report being filed, and my stash will be put to good use driving projectiles through the ribcages of whitetailed deer.... ROFL thmbsup
I wish I could afford to buy a 25 pound case of powder just for myself, but then finding a place to put it all in my condo becomes a problem!
The last time I was at a Bass Pro here in Denver they had a can (Probably an empty one.) of Goex in the case with the black powder and cowboy type handguns with a price tag of $25 or more on it, so it does pay to ask. Most of us around here either buy through clubs or get a few people together and order a case. The last time I bought some it was from a club auction and I paid $75 for 5 pounds or $15.00 per can. I can easily go through that in a year or two.
I'm not sure if the Bass Pro around here has BP or not,it is roughly 30 minutes away so it's not that bad of a drive.I'm wondering if i could possibly call them and see if they have any BP or not.If they don't i will settle for the substitutes for now,i don't want to open a can of worms.But in your guys opinion is bp better than the substitutes?Or is it a personal preference kind of thing?I personally would rather shoot real bp but it seems like it could be a hassle to acquire some.Also id the pellets of powder used for inline muzzleloaders?As i have always hated the way those things looked lol.
I will only shoot the real thing in my rifles, but I have no problems finding it.
That being said, SOME folks will tell you that there are corrosion issues with the substitues. I don't know,
never used them. These same people will tell you it doesn't matter how well you clean, they will eat up your
barrel. Once again, I can't say one way or the other.
Other people will tell you that there are no problems like that, they've shot these subs for years. That if
you clean properly, there are no corrosion issues. Again, no experiance with them.
I do know that they have been around for some time now, and in some places they are all that is available.
The store where I buy everything but BP can't carry it because there is a residence attached, but the pawn
shop in town does have it.
What I can tell you is to use the substitutes by VOLUME only, NOT by weight.
And no matter what you end up shooting, clean your rifle well.
I, too, will only shoot the real thing. It took me years to get my mother in law to try it, because the T/C manual said to use Pyrodex. When she bought her custom rifle from Andy Lund, he told her to shoot the real stuff in it. Funny how she believed him & not me... ROFL
I would love to shoot the real thing,but not sure how available it is in my area.So if i got the substitute powders 50 grains of substitute powder wouldn't exactly equal 50 grains of real bp?I wish bp was readily available,requiring a hazmat fee and i believe whatever store carries the real stuff also has to have an explosive licennse in order to be able to stock bp?That's too much and ridiculous.
there`s a weight difference between black powder and the substitutes . so , you measure by volume . the charge that your measure holds ,while not of equal weight is of equal power ! so if your rifle calls for a 50 ,60 ,80 grain or whatever , just use the appropriate measure and dont worry about the weight of the charge ! another thing is most of the substitutes do not work in flint locks , although they are making some now that are supposed to be able to use substitute powders , would`nt know myself have`nt tried the new rifles ! be careful and have fun ! thmbsup
No, unfortunately, it's not ridiculous. It's easy to forget that store owners are subject to an entire different set of liability issues than private parties, and their livelihoods as well as their lives are liable to be in jeopardy if something goes wrong. Real black powder is an incredibly volatile substance. The substitutes are more forgiving, which is why many outfits that won't deal with the regulations concerning the stocking and storage of BP will still carry Pyrodex or similar products. Given the variety of incredibly stupid behavior and/or bad luck I've witnessed over the years, IMHO there is good reason for the strictness of current regulations in regard to BP. The fact that there is almost no one left in this country capable of accepting personal responsibility for their own carelessness and/or stupidity, or of taking a "fecal matter happens" attitude toward pure accidents, just reinforces my opinion on this.
As Beowulf said, you load Pyrodex (I'm not familiar with the qualities of other substitutes so can't advise on them) in the same volume as BP. In other words, you set your powder measure to a desired charge of BP and then dump Pyrodex in, instead. Weight-wise I believe Pyrodex goes further than BP, given loads of equal volume, but use the same powder measure for either BP or Pyrodex and don't worry about the difference in weight, other than calculating how many shots of a given powder charge your pound of material will yield, if that sort of thing is important to you.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on July 31, 2012
I'm not sure if the Bass Pro around here has BP or not,it is roughly 30 minutes away so it's not that bad of a drive.I'm wondering if i could possibly call them and see if they have any BP or not.If they don't i will settle for the substitutes for now,i don't want to open a can of worms.But in your guys opinion is bp better than the substitutes?Or is it a personal preference kind of thing?I personally would rather shoot real bp but it seems like it could be a hassle to acquire some. Also id the pellets of powder used for inline muzzleloaders?As i have always hated the way those things looked lol.
In my opinion (IMO) yes, traditional black powder is better than any of the substitutes but if you can't find it locally and just don't have the money or enough friends who also need it to order 5 pounds of it (that is the minimum most companies impose) then by all means, use a substitute. You will find that when it comes to subs,
everyone has an opinion on which one is the best but understand that for as much research that goes into developing them, marketing hype or word of mouth, they are all different in one way or another from the substance they are trying to imitate; traditional charcoal/salt peter/sulpher (black powder). Pellets are for inlines only, don't waste your time or money trying to get them to work in your sidelock or cap & ball pistol. Keep in mind that since Bass Pro can't advertise that they sell Goex(BP) that you may have difficulty getting a straight answer when you call your local shop and you will have to specifically ask to speak with the manager of the gun department who is the only one likely to have the key to the powder safe. Here's the info all of the mail order distributors of Goex, but keep in mind that there is also Swiss, Schuetzen, KIK and Elephant(?) in addition to Goex.
Powder, Inc.
1861 North College Ave.
Clarksville, AR 72830
479-705-0005, Fax: 479-754-6281
Toll Free: 877-833-1799
E-mail: powderinc@centurytel.net
Website: www.powderinc.com
W. A. Murphy, Inc.
P. O. Box 4607
El Monte, CA 91734-0607
626-444-9271, Fax: 626-575-2848
E-mail: reloadit@murphypowder.com
Website: www.murphypowder.com
Deer Creek Products
P.O. Box 246
Waldron, IN 46182
765-525-6181, Fax: 765-525-6181
The Maine Powder House
482 Sokokis Ave.
P.O. Box 519
Limington, ME 04049
207-637-3775, Fax: 207-637-3623
E-mail: chris@mainepowderhouse.com
Website: www.mainepowderhouse.com
Graf & Sons, Inc.
4050 South Clark
Mexico, MO 65265
800-444-9360
Fax: 800-367-7626
This place requires that you call first but you can buy from them in person; http://www.blackpowderva.com/
Back Creek Gun Shop
863 Chestnut Grove Rd.
Winchester, Va 22603
540-888-3349
E-mail: bcgsi@visuallink.com
Website: www.blackpowderva.com
Bear River Powder
P.O. Box 2853
Evanston, WY 82931
307-789-3613 or 307-679-0886
E-mail: bearriverpowder@allwest.net
Coonie's Explosives & Black Powder, Inc.
512 East Lea, Box 2062
Hobbs, NM 88240
800-713-6321, 575-393-0166,
Fax: 575-393-6060
E-mail: cooniesblkpdr@aol.com
I found out that Diamondback Black Powder is being made in the old Elephant plant there in Brazil. If there is a Gander Mountain or even a Cabelas near your Issac, try them and see if they carry Goex.
When it comes to subs, everyone has an opinion on them and their favorite type. I am no different and after trying American Pioneer Powder (APP) Pyrodex powder and pellets as well as Triple 7. If I absolutely couldn't get real BP I would again go with T-7 in both my muzzle loaders as well as my CAS cartridge guns. If you go with a substitute and choose T-7, go with the 2F and keep in mind that you must reduce your loads of it by 10% compared to real BP becuase it is more energetic. My .54 does best with 85 grains of 2f Goex, so if I used Triple 7 I would measure 76.5 grains by volume with my powder measure. As has been mentioned, do not weigh your powder charges, always use a volume measurment. Here's a list of distributors of some other types of traditional BP;
Schuetzen Powder LLC Imports: Schuetzen, Wano and Swiss Black Powder
Distributors of Schuetzen, Wano, and Swiss:
Track of the Wolf Swiss
The Back Creek Gun Shop
Buffal Arms
Crater Fireworks & Blasting
Main Powder House
Upper Missouri Trading
Powder Inc
Distributors of KIK Powder: Made in Slovenia
Powder Inc
Nor'West Company
Distributors of Diamondback Powder: Made in Brazil
Jack's Powder Keg Back Creek Gun Shop
Powder Inc
Premium Powder and Pyrotechnics
Crater Fireworks & Blasting
The only distributor that I have personally is Powder Inc and I buy by it in 25# lots. Yes the first case was bit bite in the wallet, nest orders were not as bad as when I shot a pound I take and check the price and put the money in a coffee can. Then when I need the next case I already have the price in hand.
Buying in case lot you can buy mixed granulation.
Just one way of doing it.
Thanks everyone the very helpful replies.I am the only person i know personally that has a muzzleloader so buying 5lb's of powder myself would be a big hit in my wallet.From what i know the Wal Mart here sells BP,i am assuming they have loose powder instead of just pellets of powder for traditional muzzleloaders.When i get some money saved up i would like to get some real bp to shoot though,i hope the substitutes doesn't have any corrosive effects on my rifle.I am assuming since they have been around for so long if they did indeed mess with peoples rifles,whoever makes these substitutes would have changed the formula at some point ot correct the issue.
;D Hey Isaac, ive used Pyrodex since 1985 when i first started muzzleloading.It works just fine.Ive shot my Thompson Center 50 cal hawken,1860 colt,and my Ardesa Pennsylvania rife with it.I prefer real black but cant always find eniugh because i also reload my cartridge guns with blackpowder.It'll work fine for ya,just remember that cleanliness is next to Godliness.Clean that rifle as soon as ya can after shooting and i guarntee that all will be well,the planets will realign ,trumpets will sound,and the sun willl shine down upon ya.
Thanks Hawken50,i am assuming the substitute powders don't produce as much smoke as real bp?That's good to know that Pyrodex has worked well for you.I need to check with Wal-Mart to see what they have in the way of powder,i don't believe they are allowed to advertise such stuff on their website.I wasn't able to find any that way,i also have another question on round balls.I know i need .490 round balls and figured i'd go to trackofthewolf.com to buy some shooting supplies.Well i was looking at the .490 round balls they have and apparently they have two types for every caliber,they have: Hornady round balls that are ''die swaged from pure soft lead. Each ball is perfect, no shrinkage, no sprue, no wrinkles. Hornady round balls are made in the most popular calibers.''
And ''Hand cast round balls are cast from pure soft lead. Each ball has a tiny flat, where the sprue was removed. Place this flat spot on top, centered on your muzzle. Hand cast round balls are made in a variety of calibers.'' Which one should i get?The Hornady Round Balls for .490 are $11.99 and the Hand Cast Round Balls for .490 are $11.60 so not much difference in price,is it just preference?
Also do i need a Wedge Puller as shown in the T/C Manual in order to remove the wedge that holds my barrel on the stock?Or can you remove the wedge with just your hand?I haven't tried to remove it yet.
[hmm] Wellllll,I shoot both.At 50 yards i cant tell the differance,at 100 the swaged balls will print a little tighter group.As a matter of fact i just checked anf there's both in my ball bag.....lol Either ones fine as long as you load the hand cast sprue up.
Ive never needed a wedge puller on any of my Hawken styled rifles.Usually just tap em from the other side a mite with a soft hammer,short starter,convient screwdriver handle,etc.
Thanks Hawken,i think i will buy the Hornady Balls as they don't have a sprue,this is more personal preference than anything though.Thanks for the tip on the wedge.
I just got done taking the wedge pin out of my Renegade,which obviously removes the barrel from the stock.It was surprisingly VERY easy,as a matter of fact no tools were required to push it out.Just grab and pull,two things i was surprised about at first was the barrel only has ONE opening.Not two like a modern day rifle,which makes sense as it is a muzzleloader,and second i feel taking the barrel from the stock should be sufficient for cleaning 99.9% of the gun.As the only other metal parts on the rifle is the butt plate and hammer.It should be very easy to clean as well since the barrel only has one opening, i think the only part of the rifle that i will have to submerge in water will be the barell.The hammer and other parts i should be able to wipe down with hot soapy water and rub lube over after i am done cleaning it.
Only submerge the breech end, two inches or so past the nipple hole for cleaning. I use a cleaned out plastic container of margarine for this purpose. Fill with warm water then add two drops of dish soap, pump out the dirty stuff with 2-3 patches, pour out dirty water and replace with fresh, pump clean with 2-3 patches and then wipe barrel with dry rag to remove as much water as you can, then set muzzle end down on the rag to let drain for a few minutes. Oil and replace in stock. You'll get the hand of it in no time. You only need to wide the exterior parts with a damp rag or alcohol patch to remove dirt, soapy water isn't necessary. A drop or two of oil on a patch is enough to wipe down the surface after cleaning.
Concerning roundballs, I have purchased Hornady roundballs from Nicks Mountain House for approx $9.00 per 100 and no Sales tax. But I cant get onto the page for current prices. Currently I cast all rb and conicals. TOW charges $11.99 per 100. Thats a saving of $2.50-$3.00 per 100. Hope you have better luck accessing the sight.
http://www.nicksmountainhouse.com/Balls.htm
Quote from: William on August 01, 2012
Only submerge the breech end, two inches or so past the nipple hole for cleaning. I use a cleaned out plastic container of margarine for this purpose. Fill with warm water then add two drops of dish soap, pump out the dirty stuff with 2-3 patches, pour out dirty water and replace with fresh, pump clean with 2-3 patches and then wipe barrel with dry rag to remove as much water as you can, then set muzzle end down on the rag to let drain for a few minutes. Oil and replace in stock. You'll get the hand of it in no time. You only need to wide the exterior parts with a damp rag or alcohol patch to remove dirt, soapy water isn't necessary. A drop or two of oil on a patch is enough to wipe down the surface after cleaning.
A cleaned up coffee can or something similar will also work nicely to hold the water. What you use to hold the cleaning water doesn't matter much, so you should have something on hand that will work fine.
Make sure the inside of the barrel is dry before you oil it. That usually only takes a couple of dry patches. Oil LIGHTLY, you just need to keep it from rusting and too much oil will create another set of problems.
Try to make a habit of checking the barrel with a dry patch the next day to be sure everything is done right.
I'll throw 2 cents worth in here also... When cleaning my rifles I use all the above techniques but I did learn very fast that extream hot water will equal an extremly hot barrel faster than I would have thought. (yes I burnt my fingers) In other words be ready for the barrel to get very warm while you are pumping the water through it and don't drop it because it will spill all that hot water all over the kitchen floor and then you get the pleasure of mopping the entire floor and listening to her snicker in the background.... whipping
I now have an old kitchen mitt in the cleaning supplies for just that purpose.
Thanks everyone,i was going to fill the bathtub up with water and clean the gun that way.But seeing how you can use a coffee can to clean the gun i'm not so sure that is the most convenient way to clean it lol.For lube does most people on here use Bore Butter?
Depends on what you're lubing.
I only use spit-lubed patches for target, mink oil for hunting. I don't much like the "lubes" that are out there. I have
experianced bad fouling and difficult clean up with them.
I use Hoppe's elite gun oil for oiling and lubing moving parts after cleaning.
I use plain white Crisco for patch lube when hunting, spit when shooting targets.
A note on cleaning -- Pyrodex isn't as bad as black powder in this regard, but cleaning is still a smelly and potentially very dirty process. A spilled container of used cleaning solution or accidentally lifting or angling the barrel in such a way that foul water spraying from the nipple hole clears the edge of the bucket, can, or tub, can lead to a lot more than just the snickers that Badger describes, if one's significant other lacks a sympathetic sense of humor about the whole mess. Best to get the hang of the process outside. I speak from painful experience.
I believe i will try it outside now that i've read everyone's comments lol.So Crisco will work as a bore lube/outside lube for all the metal parts to protect them against rust?Please excuse me having not much gun experience.I have owned just .22 rifles and shot 9mm and .45's.
I wouldn't use Crisco except on the patches. It has a tendency to turn sticky and nasty with age.
If you use it on your metal parts you could have a real mess. :blech:
Crisco is only for patch lube. I use plain 3-in-1 oil from the hardware store to protect my locks and the bores of my barrels from rust. In fact in my shop I have an old rag saturated with motor oil for wiping stuff I won't be working on for awhile.
Your patch lube, whatever you use, is to ease loading and to an extent keep the bore clean once you've loaded, in case it's going to be awhile till you fire the shot. This is why I mentioned I use spit for shooting targets -- I load knowing I'm going to fire the gun, so spit works just fine. Hunting, though, is another story. It might be hours before a shot is fired and spit will dry fairly quickly, not to mention if one is too slobbery about wetting the patch it can (theoretically) moisten the powder charge to the point of affecting ignition (never had it happen but then I don't roll the patch around in a mouthful of saliva and load it dripping wet, either).
The subjects of both patch lube and oil can be as simple or as complicated as you care to make them. I find that my gun locks and bores don't seem to realize I'm not using special labelled-as-such "gun oil" to keep things lubed and rust-free, and since I only hunt in the late fall and winter I don't have a problem with Crisco. This saves me having to actually buy special products for the use and upkeep of my guns. You mileage may (and the mileage of many here certainly does) vary, and that's fine. As long as what's being recommended to you is based on experience in what WORKS, the only way you stand to go wrong is on the off-chance that someone recommending something you like the sounds of lives in an area with a significantly different climate than yours and that affects how well the recommended item will work.
Being new to this game, you need to come to an understanding of this -- there are a lot of variables when it comes to these guns and the accessories that are either necessary or helpful to get them and keep them working. You will run into "suggestions" that read more like "Thou shalts....", but there are actually relatively few details about these guns and their use where there is one way and only one way of doing something. What works for one person might not work for or simply might not be to the liking of another person. When unsure, of course, you want to ask questions, but be prepared to sift through and consider the answers you get, and don't be confused if often there seem to be as many answers as there are persons answering.
There is only one "Thou Shalt" that must be adhered to,, that is "Thou shalt put the powder in first"... cuch flwa
I agree,you (and i) should ALWAYS put the powder in first,i will make it a point to always do that.I live in Eastern Tennessee just about and an hour and a half or 2 hours away from North Carolina.So the climate here is humid.I'm just mainly concerned what to use to prevent rust after the barrel is dry,i know to shoot a couple of caps and run a patch of alcohol down the barrel of the rifle to make sure whatever was used to lube/prevent rust in the barrel is clear before you shoot it next.
I use two different types of oil in the bore to prevent rust. But my primary is WD40, works great. I recently tried something else, it is called FLUID FLOW. DONT USE THIS IN THE BORE! I figured I'd treat the bores in preparation for hot humid summer months to prevent rust in the bore of my barrels. It is great for preventing rust, BUT every rifle when taken to the range shoots a shotgun spread where the groups were tighter prior to using FLUID FLOW. Went shooting today and shot 40 shots with a 43 point score on Best target. Fluid flow sticks to the metal. Probably excellent on snow blower and tractor parts, BUT NOT IN RIFLE BORE, this is only my opinion, I need to research with another fluid flow treated barrel, on Saturday. So far 2 out of 3 barrels shoot erratic.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on August 02, 2012
I believe i will try it outside now that i've read everyone's comments lol.So Crisco will work as a bore lube/outside lube for all the metal parts to protect them against rust?Please excuse me having not much gun experience.I have owned just .22 rifles and shot 9mm and .45's.
No, Crisco, olive oil, olive oil & beeswax, bore butter,, spit etc. are for lubing your shooting patches with and you don't ever want to try and ram down a dry patched round ball. Conicals do not require a patch though, don't try to patch a conical with a regular shooting patch. No, there are some recipes for a "dry" type lube, which isn't oily or greasy to the touch but that isn't the same as a dry patch with nothing on it. Your rust preventatives such as Barricade, Rem-oil, etc., are for lubricating the metal to metal parts in the lock as well as for coating the bore with to prevent rust. Crisco, Bore Butter, or whatever type of patch lube you choose is better than nothing for rust prevention and lubricating moving parts in your lock but while we play as if we were in the 17th-18th centuries, take advantage of 21st century technology when it comes to rust prevention.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on August 02, 2012
I agree,you (and i) should ALWAYS put the powder in first,i will make it a point to always do that.I live in Eastern Tennessee just about and an hour and a half or 2 hours away from North Carolina.So the climate here is humid.I'm just mainly concerned what to use to prevent rust after the barrel is dry,i know to shoot a couple of caps and run a patch of alcohol down the barrel of the rifle to make sure whatever was used to lube/prevent rust in the barrel is clear before you shoot it next.
Try as you might, you WILL dryball! All it takes is someone speaking to you at the wrong time, and down goes the patch and ball and.....NO powder! We all have done it, or we will, there is no way around it. It will happen, it's
just a matter of time. :o
I should have said i will try and not dryball my first 10 shots lol.I am going to buy pre lubed patches to start off,i know buying pillow ticking is way cheaper but like the convinience of pre lubed patches.I will buy some rem oil or WD-40 as a rust prevenative.I am also thinking of buying extra nipples along with a nipple wrench,flask (potentially),range rod,powder (some is supposed to be available at the local walmart,probably Pyrodex.),pre lubed patches,cleaning patches,caps,balls,extra nipples (potentially),crown protector (potentially),and a patch puller and worm puller.Thanks to Renegade i don't have to buy a powder measure or a Jag.I still have some stuff to buy,but it's really not all that much in the overall picture.
I agree with using pre-cut/lubed patches to start with but you'll just want to pick up one extra nipple for now, just to have a back-up. For keeping small items together in one place, like the nipple wrench, cleaning jag, breech scrapper, etc., an empty tin box like Altoids or Fisherman's Friend cough drops comes in works really well, and as our forum name suggests, is cheap. The newer Altoids tin have the name stamped into the lid, which you can hammer to reshape but I bet you can scare up an old one that you just have to sand or burn the paint off of to make it look cool and antique. If not, there are plenty of places to buy small tins, rectangular and round. Here's just one place to get them;
http://bepreparedtosurvive.com/Misc.Containers.htm
I burned the paint of an Altoids tin and have the following in mine;
2 powder flask spouts
4 jags
2 nipples
nipple wrench
extra wedge key
& some Allen wrenches that I've forgotten what they go to
PS-if you do dryball don't sweat it as it is not the most exclusive club in town- &)
There is one more small, inexpensive item you will need to have in the kit William mentioned. A NIPPLE PICK, can be a thin paper clip straightened or a commercially available one. Use this to clear blockage in nipple. Caps sometimes cause fouling of nipple. Nipple pick is inserted through hole/orafice of nipple to clear blockage and allow good passage of spark to main powder charge. Also concerning the jags, avoid jags with brass threads, brass jags with steel threads DO NOT BREAK leaving patched jag in barrel, when cleaning. I have had two total brass jags break off while cleaning the bore. It is real interesting try to shoot out a broken sopping wet patched jag from a wet barrel. And they always seem to break off in the powder resevoir pocket.
ROFL Yep, remember this,there are those that have dryballed and those that will.
There also those that while loading, were distracted, talking with others and double charged powder and patched ball. Makes for a minimum of a bulged barrel. Pay close attention to your loading. Talk later.
Saw this listed on ebay this AM. It looks like it has most everything you need to get out shooting.
Depending on what it goes for it's not a bad deal.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CVA-MUZZLELOADING-SHOOTERS-KIT-NO-4092-/190710274557?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item2c6737d9fd#ht_576wt_934
That does look like a good deal.But i will most likely buy everything i need this coming paycheck.Does anyone use a Brass cleaning brush on their muzzleloader's or do patches work just as good?What type of Allen Keye's do i need?From what i can tell there i THINK there should be no reason for me to break the gun down anymore than just the barrel and stock.I don't think i'll need a wedge key though.To take the wedge pin out on this T/C renegade Hunter is actually very easy.I can get it out effortlessly just by puching and pulling it.
Unless you have something on your rifle that requires and Allen wrench to be removed you don't need any. My old Lyman Trade Rifle had a cleanout screw that required an Allen wrench but when Mongrel rebuilt it and changed the breach plug from right to left it has a slotted screwhead now.
Quote from: Dogshirt on August 03, 2012
Saw this listed on ebay this AM. It looks like it has most everything you need to get out shooting.
Depending on what it goes for it's not a bad deal.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CVA-MUZZLELOADING-SHOOTERS-KIT-NO-4092-/190710274557?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item2c6737d9fd#ht_576wt_934
there is at least $35-$50 worth of stuff in that kit and most of it looks good for someone getting started, but don't forget to factor in the shipping if you bid on it. The powder flask alone goes for $15-$25 and there was a short starter and what looks like at least one powder measure plus something else and a basic handbook. It is a good deal if you can get it for under $20.
(added)
FOUR powder measures and a nipple wrench! The extra nipples are probably metric and would not work on a TC.
From what i can tell my T/C doesn't require a allen wrench.Do you know what size my T/C Renegade Hunter would be for extra nipples?I will probably buy a short starter (i believe i saw them going for $5-6) and some other supplies in a day or two.
The Renegade and Hawken models both take a 1/4-28 nipple for #11 caps. However, there is minimal clearance between the hammer nose and the top of the nipple, when the lock is at half-cock. T/C makes a specific nipple for their rifles and I'm not sure whether or not anyone else makes one as short. The T/C-brand nipples are a little pricey (in my opinion, but then I'm accustomed to buying them out of cigar boxes at flea markets and events so I'm not the best judge of "pricey") but you buy them knowing they'll work with your rifle.
Numerous auction-site sellers offer these nipples and I'm sure most stores with a halfway well-stocked black powder inventory will have them as well.
I went to walmart today and they had Pyrodex RS but it was $20 for just 456 grains (i believe) which in my opinion seems to be a rip off so i didn't buy it.I did buy a can of specialist WD-40 for cleaning the gun it was expensive,it was $11.87 i believe for a 6.5 ounce can but it did come with a nozzle which should make it easier to spray down the barrel of the gun,it is used for long term storage so i hope it will last me a while and i picked the right one for my muzzleloader.So far that is all i have got.
Just to clarify -- on a muzzleloader shot with either black powder or one of the substitutes, DO NOT actually clean the gun with any form of lubricant. Not WD-40, not Hoppe's, not "gun oil" of any kind. You clean modern firearms loaded with smokeless with solvent-based chemicals. Do that with BP or a substitute and you will wind up with a gooey mess on your hands. Oils and solvent-based items are for rust prevention ONLY.
Quote from: mongrel on August 07, 2012
Just to clarify -- on a muzzleloader shot with either black powder or one of the substitutes, DO NOT actually clean the gun with any form of lubricant. Not WD-40, not Hoppe's, not "gun oil" of any kind. You clean modern firearms loaded with smokeless with solvent-based chemicals. do that with BP or a substitute and you will wind up with a gooey mess on your hands. Oils and solvent-based items are for rust prevention ONLY.
IBID; learn from my/our mistakes, we were all beginners at one point or another.
So clean the gun with hot soapy water and then use WD-40 to lubricate the inside and outside of the barrel and hammer ect. after cleaning it and letting it dry?Also i feel retarded,i must have been sleepy or something when i said the Pyrodex RS they had was only 456 grains lol,it was actually 454 GRAMS A.K.A. a whole POUND of powder lol.I was like ''s---!!'' when i realized this,so i went back up there tonight and exchanged the over expensive WD-40 Specialist for a big 18 oz can of ''big blast'' WD-40 that i got some money back on.Bought the 1lb can of Pyrodex RS,and also bought a Bullet Starter,100 #11 CCI Magnum Caps for my gun,100 cleaning patches,and a Range Rod that is 31 inches long and accepts 10-32 attachments (what i have.) so now all i need is some hearing protection (should have got some from Wal-Mart) patches to shoot my gun,and balls and i'm ready to shoot so it turned out to be a great day.
Will say i wished i would have asked the fine people on here that if you shot a #11 cap by itself how loud it would be,as there was no way i thought a super small cap like that would make such a loud noise lol.It was also 1:30 in the morning so hope the cops don't show up.Most likely i'll need to invest in a spout for the powder can as it's going to be hard not to spill said powder everywhere when trying to put it into the powder measure from the can.I think my #11 cap disentigrated when i shot it as well,is that normal?I'd just like to add the range rod,cleaning patches,and ball starter were all coincidently made by Thompson Center lol.And does anyone else here use WD-40 as a rust prevenative?
Here is the cost of everything as per my receipt
Bullet Starter for .45-.58 Cal muzzleloader: $3.97
100 General Cleaning patches for .45-.54 Cal Black Powder and .375-.45 Centerfire: $3.97
100 Winchester Magnum #11 BP caps: $6.97
Universal Power Rod for barrels up to ''31 inches'' (it's a range rod,looks like one and came with a bullet starter?I think that's what there called and it can thread the Jag Renegade sent me): $21.97
and finally Pyrodex RS: $19.97
So not sure if i paid too much or not.But it's nice to know Wal-Mart carried most of the stuff i need to shoot except pre lubed patches or balls.
Mongrel added --
Tiny edit and no big deal, but that particular term for fecal matter is one that has to be avoided here -- even when it very definitely applies. ;D
I looked online and apparently the Thompson Center Universal Power Rod is supposed to be a Ram Rod,your supposed to cut it down to the size of a ram rod and use it as such,but it doubles as a cleaning rod.I personally installed the threaded tip by tapping it with my wooden bullet starter which worked great,and i am going to use it as a range rod.It is alluminum and has a T-shaped handle so i say why not?With the wooden ram rod that is with the gun i only have about an inch of rod left when it is all the way down the bore.But with the Universal Power Rod where i ddn't bother to cut it down into a ram rod and just installed the tip as is i have 5 1/2 inches left of the rod sticking out,so i believe it will work just fine as a Range/Cleaning Rod.Something i just now noticed is i don't need a nipple wrench,maybe my gun is just awesome or maybe i am blessed with small fingers (probably the case) but i am able to unscrew the nipple on my gun by hand rather easily,and when i screwed it back it was just as tight as it was when i had it unscrewed.I don't think i will need a pipe cleaner to clean it either.I think the water being pumped up through the nipple area when it is removed plus cleaning the nipple bu itself should be more than enough to ensure it is clean.
Glad you got most of your goodies. And yes, a range rod/cleaning rod is just an over length ramrod.However, you WILL need a nipple wrench after you shoot as the fouling will lock that puppy in like Loctite. Also, the nipple should be snugged up well, not torqued, but snugged.
As for hearing protection, the cheap foam ones are all you need and can be found at most any hardware store, farm supply store, just about antwhere.
I bought a whole case at a yard sale for 1$. Buy several and keep them everywhere. In your shooting bag, range box, jacket pocket. That way you will
have them. Also, you can run them through the washer in you pants pocket and clean them, but DON'T run them through the dryer. They don't seem to work after the dryer.
You are doing fine, but you WILL need the nipple wrench and something for a powder measure.
Don't forget shooting glasses to go with the ear protection.
When (not "if") you dryball which is when you start the patched ball and either seat it or realize just after short starting it that you forgot to load powder:
seat the ball if you did not do that
remove the nipple
drop some powder in the nipple hole
tap the side of the gun to settle it in
drop some more powder in the nipple hole
tap again
more powder
tap again
reinstall nipple
point gun about 10 yds downrange
cap and fire downrange while watching muzzle and looking for patch & ball to kick up dust
You should see a little bit of smoke, probably see the ball flying downrange, and see the ball kick up a bit of dust where it impacts.
Thanks for the helpful replies everyone,i just tried out my cleaning patches and i will say the ram rod that came with the gun doubles as a fine cleaning rod.There is a Tom's Sporting Goods in my area that one of my buddies said they had .44 balls for his .44 bp revolver,so if that's the case i hope they also carry some .50 caliber balls (which are between .490 or .495 if i remember correctly),a nipple wrench and some shooting patches.It will be like killing three birds with one stone lol.
Edit: I have a powder measure that Renegade was nice enough to send me along with a cleaning Jag.The cleaning Jag works perfectly and the powder measure works as well.
If they have shooting supplies, they will probably have the foam ear plugs.
Go to a gun show & get custom fitted plugs, you won't regret it...
Wal-Mart has foam ear plugs as well,i just forgot to get some when i went there.It's been awhile since i have tried the disposable ear plugs from Wal Mart.But from what i can remember they were pretty comfortable.Not sure if there is any gun shows around my area right now or not.
Hey everyone i found most of the stuff i need to clean/shoot my gun on trackofthewolf.com.I found better rust protectors that they were selling here: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/385/1 i'm thinking of either getting the Ballistol, Multi Purpose Sportsman's Oil,or the Barricade® Rust Preventative to prevent rust,and just using the WD-40 after i get done scrubbing the barrel to help dry it quicker.And maybe use the WD-40 on the hammer to lubricate it ect.Is this a good nipple wrench? http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/65/1/NW-120 it is at track of the wolf as well.I was going to pick up an extra nipple but decided against it for now,and i forgot what size of nipple my gun takes.The only think trackofthewolf doesn't have that i was hoping they would is a powder spout that will fit my Pyrodex can,oh well.
That seems like a decent nipple wrench. I prefer Barricade in this type of container; http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/385/1/BC-PS-4 because I can apply as many drops of oil as I need to the final cleaning patch to coat the bore before storage. It is also handy for putting one drop on metal to metal parts inside the lock. I don't not like WD-40 as a lubricant, many better options. Ballistol can be used as a shooting patch lube, a cleaner as well as a rust preventaive but I can't stand the smell. Your mileage may differ.
That's the one i'm thinking of buying.The only drawback is it is only 4 oz,but i'm sure it will last a while since it only takes a few drops.
I'll throw my 2 cents in on this part of the topic... I don't use anything except good old vegitable oil on "Patience" for Lube after cleaning. Now remember I do use her quite frequently and she is always on display so I don't forget to clean her. I might use something else if I was going to store her for a couple of months without any use.
So you use Vegetable Oil as a rust prevenative correct?If it works just as good as Rem Oil i could just buy Vegetable Oil as a rust prevenative and use WD-40 as a water displacer and as a lubricant.
Yes I use veg oil only no wd 40 at all or any other oil. Clean with boiling water and it dries very fast poin barel down and water will drain out wait 1/4 to 1/2 hour, run some patches to make sure she is dry then run 1 or 2 with oil, and wipe with veg oil and stick her on the rack... I lue the internals of the trigger and lock mechs wth veg oil also and have not had gumming issues when it gets nice and chilli out... (Oklahoma rarely gets below 0 f)
That might be a concern to think about.. Temp in your area could play havoc with whatever lube/ cleaning solution you go with... I have heard that Bore Butter is like water above 95 degrees....
I have a bottle of very rancid canola oil that I use a lot of the time. Canola oil used to be called rapeseed oil and was used for fuel and lubrication in various applications. If you use it and store the gun for more than a couple of weeks it would be best to store it muzzle down because otherwise it tends to slowly drain down into the breech area and create problems.
I have used canola oil to free up a balky lock when there was nothing else in camp and it worked fine. The rifle belonged to a friend who only shot it a couple of times a year and didn't take very good care of it.
[hmm] Extra virgin olive oil is a great natural oil that you can use as a lube for patches and rust prevention wont harm the stock either.Sweet oil is just highly refined olive oil.The odimers used it from what ive read.I like to experiment.I use olive oil in my 50 hawken,bore butter in my 50 pennsylvania,ans mink oil in my 45 senaca.Been doin this for a year now sorta as a long term test.well they all work fine so far.The olive oil makes it easier to load but not by much=Cleanup is a breeze with all three,i just use warm water,two wet patchest three dry patches then whitchever lube im using with that gun.No rust as yet and cleaning seems easier each time.
Inmnsho,,,,,,I beleive if ya stick to the oils that are not petroleum based ya will have a more harmonius outcome.Plus ya probbly have a least one ihn yur kitchen cabinet right now.
Yep there is a big thing of Olive Oil in the kitchen,i might try using that as well.Since you are from Virginia Hawken 50 and i am from Eastern Tennessee our climates should be very similar.So if olive oil is working fine for you as a rust prevenative and lube that would save me money quite a bit.It seems people on here are having great success with said oils so i should to (hopefully lol).That is what they used in the old days i guess and if it worked for them it should work for us.One thing i have noticed though,is when you aren't shooting your gun you should store it barell down after lubing it ect.
Isaac
I also have used olive oil with great results.
Hey everyone i purchased a Patch Puller,Powder Can Funnel (for my Pyrodex RS can),100 .495 round balls (they were cheaper than the .490 balls at thegunworks.com ,and 100 pre-lubed .50 cal shooting patches lubricated with wonder lube 1,000 i believe it was for $43.00 yesterday.The only thing i believe i messed up in was i went and bought some Break Free Powder Blast to clean my muzzleloader today at Wal-Mart since i believe some of the fine folks here said they have used it with good results on their muzzleloaders.And it appears to be a powder solvent but it looks like i need to go and buy Break Free CLP and use that as a Lubricant/Rust prevenative,that's what i get for not reading the can thoroughly lol.Will the Break Free Powder Blast be alright to use?And i have already asked this question,just wanted to see if i remember the answer correctly,when i am shooting my gun i should swab the bore every 4-5 shots correct?But i can't remember if i should swab with a dry cleaning patch or put something on the patch to swab the bore,thanks.
A note of caution on using the powder can funnel with Pyrodex; cap it with the original cap after the range session as the cap funnel is not an adequate air tight seal and Pyrodex with suck up water even a room humidity levels. I had a bottle turn into a solid chunk just over the span of a couple months. I got it broken up and used it and it was a good introduction for flintlock shooting with a caplock, every shot was a hangfire (susp)
Also, clean the hammer recess really well with a toothbrush and oil it with a q-tip. This is one of the most neglected areas in addition to the breech area behind the nipple on TC rifles. I have seen rifles with pristine bores have rotted out hammers.
Thanks for the tips Blackfeet,is the hammer Recess the part where the part of the hammer strikes the percussion cap?And where is the breech area?I plan on wiping down all the parts on the rifle,and scrubbing the metal parts like crazy and oiling them,except the wooden stock of the gun,although i will wipe it down very thoroughly.I like to have very clean guns if possible.
Yes, that is the cup that surrounds the cap when fired. Get in the corners really well with the soapy water and toothbrush. The breech area that is generally missed is the crevasse just behind the nipple seat where it slopes down. Again, get down into the tight spaces with the brush.
Woah there... lets take these comments one at a time...
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on August 15, 2012
...Will the Break Free Powder Blast be alright to use? I do not know, but I would say take it back and just use Hot soapy water to clean your rifle.
And i have already asked this question,just wanted to see if i remember the answer correctly,when i am shooting my gun i should swab the bore every 4-5 shots correct? But i can't remember if i should swab with a dry cleaning patch or put something on the patch to swab the bore,thanks. I swab mine with a dry patch when loading gets hard.
And you asked where the breech was - that is the very rear of the barrel where the powder sits when loaded... your not supposed to take the breech plug out so you have to clean it from the muzzle with your rod and patches...
Thanks Red Badger,i will be sure to pay extra special attention to the breech area when cleaning the gun.Oops,i know hot soapy water is what is used to clean the gun,i was just wondering if Break Free CLP is adequete as a lubricant and rust prevenative?
That I don't know. Like I said I use vegitable oil for that.... I have been called a cheap Ba$&%#d... :mini-devil-28492:
Break Free CLP will be good for a rust preventative and lubricant for the metal to metal parts inside the lock. It shouldn't be used as lube for your shooting patches though.
WOW......13 pages! I didn't think cleaning a .50 cal was that difficult! Guess I'll stick to my.32's! fncg bunkr ROFL
chrrs Amen, Pathfinder.
Lol it isn't,you can thank me for asking various questions (and some repeats.),But i want to make sure i have the best to clean my muzzleloader and do it properly.If everything pans out i shpuld be able to shoot my gun on one of my days off this week.
Quote from: pathfinder on August 16, 2012
WOW......13 pages! I didn't think cleaning a .50 cal was that difficult! Guess I'll stick to my.32's! fncg bunkr ROFL
who`da thunk it ? hdslp thats the nice thing about owning a bess , the bore is so big you just climb on in and scrub her down with a brush and a bucket of water ! ROFL ROFL ROFL
Hey everyone just thought i'd let you know the stuff i ordered from thegunworks.com arrived earlier today.100 182 grain .495 lead balls from Buffalo Bullet Company,100 0.010 pre lubed Ox-Yoke patches pre lubed with Wonder Lube 1,000 Plus,a snap-on nozzle for my Pyrodex Powder can and Triple 7 cans,and a patch puller along with the wedge puller/nipple wrench and other goodies Renegade was nice enough to send me also arrived conveniently today.
All i need is a cheap can of Break Free CLP to clean the gun,so i will FINALLY get to shoot this gun next week!A couple of impressions though,the snap on nozzle stays on the can VERY well,which is great.But it required a little effort on my part to remove said nozzle from my powder can (i was trying it out) and i spilt a little of my powder when i finally got it off lol.And in my opinion the .50 .495 caliber ball is smaller than i thought,but HEAVY for it's size,and the fact it flattens out to the size of a quarter when hunting is insane.That is all for now.
EDIT: the 100 shooting patches pre-lubed with wonder lube 1,000 plus smells like spearmint or other minty smell in my opinion lol.
Hey guys,i'm wondering how am i supossed to get a .495 (un-patched) round ball out of the bore of my rifle?I read online where people had their .490 un patched round balls and it would role in and out of the bore,well i dropped mine in (just for the hell of it).....and let's just say it's all the way down the barell and will NOT come out!I've pointed the gun down and gave the butt part of the stock a couple of whacks...and nothing!I'm going to be shooting it this Wednesday so i need to know how to get this ball out of there,the balls i have are 182 grain .495 Buffalo Bullet Company Round balls,and i don't have a ball puller pnic
Do you know someone close by with a Co2 Ball Dis charger ?
OR a Mechanic friend with a Compressor and a Rubber tip Blow Gun take out the Nipple and see if you can dislodge it that way. [hmm]
Point it in a safe place before you try it pnic pnic
Make sure to tell them in advance about the NO Powder thing so they don't run when they see you bring it in!
I will assumne that there is no powder in the bore, correct? IF you are sure that there is no powder in the bore then snap a cap or two while the barrel is pointed downrange and see if that dislodges the ball. You must do this at the range or somewhere that it is safe because the RB can still be deadly, even going slow. If this doesn't get them out then remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of powder into the hole, gently knock the side of the lock do settle the powder or use a paper clip to get the powder into the chamber, then replace the nipple. Again, this should be done at the range because the RB can still be deadly, so don't cap until you are pointed downrange and then snap one off. This should do it, but if not then you're going to have to borrow a ball puller or a CO2 discharger.
Quote from: William on August 28, 2012
I will assumne that there is no powder in the bore, correct? IF you are sure that there is no powder in the bore then snap a cap or two while the barrel is pointed downrange and see if that dislodges the ball. You must do this at the range or somewhere that it is safe because the RB can still be deadly, even going slow. If this doesn't get them out then remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of powder into the hole, gently knock the side of the lock do settle the powder or use a paper clip to get the powder into the chamber, then replace the nipple. Again, this should be done at the range because the RB can still be deadly, so don't cap until you are pointed downrange and then snap one off. This should do it, but if not then you're going to have to borrow a ball puller or a CO2 discharger.
Like William said, DON'T just point it at the ground in front of your feet. Do point it downrange about 10 feet if you try just a cap,or 10 yds if you use CO2 or powder to fire it out.
and before you load and shoot, run a cleaning patch down the bore. Use alcohol or spit patch if you had to use powder to shoot the ball out or a dry patch will do if you used a CO2 blower.
One thing to try first tho', try putting several layers or cardboard or some old jeans or something like that on the floor so you don't damage the floor and bump the muzzle on that several times. It should be enough to dislodge the ball.
Thanks for the helpful replies everyone,i am 100% sure there is NO powder charge in the barell,as i have fired 3-4 caps before this at a later date just dicking around.I'm going to try and bump the muzzle but i have a feeling that won't work,i hope the cap or powder method works....if not i know of no one with a CO2 discharge kit or anything like that.So i guess it's off to a gunsmith,this is the last time i try to see if an unpatches RB will roll in and out of a barell without getting stuck lol.
Well i am glad to say the stacking blue jeans and whacking the muzzle in a downward motion on said stack of blue jeans worked lol,i did try before this to get in unstuck though,just didn't think to stack something soft and give it a couple of whacks to see if that would dislodge the ball.When it was stuck i even tried to get it out with a patch puller,i didn't hurt the patch puller obviously but figured lead being a soft metal that it might work since the patch puller has two steel wires jutting out the front,so now this lead ball is deformed lol.
And i can guarantee you it will be the first ball i shoot ever out of this muzzleloader just for being a pain lol.Thanks everyone for the helpful tips,at first i felt dumb since the blue jean method worked,but i am just glad it did and i didn't have to try more drastic measures.It had me worried there for a second,now i can shoot this thing when planned!Once again thanks everyone!
Glad you are back on track!
Hmmmm... Sounds like you might have learned a valuable lesson... I had to pull one ball after the powder charge got wet... I was at the store buying the CO2 discharger the next trip into town.... pnic
repeat after me:
1. powder
2. Patch
3. Ball
4. Never put anything down the barrel of my rifle gun until I am ready to shoot it!
repeat 1-4 for about 1 million times ....
Glad it worked. I think I learned that one the hard way too.
Its amazing what you can learn (and sometimes forget) in 40 plus years of doing this. Good luck with the shooting, and believe it or not that ball will shoot just as good to about 25yds as the best ones you have.
I am going to offer a bit of advice as both a Hunter's Safety Instructor and as a cynic who has witnessed and been party to a number of mishaps that could have turned tragic, due to carelessness. I just thank God that none did. It might seem to go contrary to the purpose of this forum (discussion) and might seem to be intended to rain on a newbie's parade, but it's said out of a concern for safety. In that spirit I don't particularly care who likes it -- or not.
This rifle you've purchased and have been doing your level best to learn all about, before using it, is a deadly weapon. There is a very old and wise saying as to how familiarity breeds contempt. "Complacency" can be just as dangerous as contempt, when it comes to guns and a number of other things, because it leads to carelessness.
There are now 13 pages of discussion in regard to the care and feeding of your rifle. God knows how many differing opinions have been expressed as to projectiles, powder, lubes. I've contributed to the mix and at this point I'm almost sorry for that. There is a serious possibility of information overload in play here, in addition to which there has been snapping of caps and introduction of ball to barrel while seeking the perfect combination of components and methods, as per the advice received here. One of the essentials in maintaining safety in the use, handling, and care of firearms is simplicity -- not only a lack of complication but a lack of distraction, and in that sense an overload of information can be just as dangerous as not knowing what you're doing at all, particularly when physcially handling a firearm and the ammunition intended for it.
Settle on one or several pieces of advice, stop being concerned with whether there's some better product or way of doing things -- the advice offered here has been good to the tenth power. Settle on what you intend to do and what you intend to do it with, and go out and get to shooting. If you're not yet prepared to do that, then please set the rifle aside while waiting for the last item to be found and purchased, or for the day at the range to arrive. As many guns as I build and work on and consequently handle, with testing for function a necessary part of the process, I never play with a gun.
We have had the discussion a few times about how some call their guns toys and others have a problem with them being called weapons -- but they are NOT toys, they ARE weapons, and there are more than too many people in the ground because that distinction was overlooked or ignored.
If this hurts feelings or makes anyone angry, I'm sorry -- or maybe it would be more honest to say, too bad. I know from personal experience how easy it is to make one simple, slight mistake in the handling of a firearm, when loading and discharging it wasn't intended -- but somehow happened anyway.
thmbsup
You said it well Mike.
The first thing you need to do before cleaning your rifle is make sure it's not already loaded, load it with a starter load(1 grain per cal. is a good starting point) use whatever lube you want w/whatever patch mat'l you have that lets you seat the ball without having to beat the ball home and shoot it. Once you've finished firing the gun for the day, try whatever cleaning method you want to try. The important thing is to make sure it's clean. Go until the patches look clean, not necessarily white but very pale gray, oil lightly w/a rust preventative oil and check the next day w/a clean patch. If necessary, clean again. Once you're familiar w/your rifle, you can start trying different patch, ball, lube & powder combos as well as different clean methods. Each rifle is different and part of the fun of our sport is finding what works for YOUR rifle. The main idea is to have fun. You now have lots of good ideas for things to try. Go for it.
Mongrel i am not upset or angry at all in what you posted,because every word of it is true.I personally shouldn't have been messing around with the gun but was anyway,if i had it to do again i wouldn't have dropped the ball down the bore.It tought me a valuable lesson though the hard way,i personally bought Break Free CLP to clean the gun and i have a method already laid out to clean my gun thanks to the people here.I will not be messing around with different powders,lubes ect. by any means in the early stages of me owning this gun.Will let everyone here know how the shooting session goes tomorrow if it doesn't rain.I'm very excited to finally be able to shoot this rifle,but i will be VERY safe and careful,and WILL NOT mess around with this gun anymore.
Hey everyone i just got done cleaning my black powder rifle (and shooting it) it was a BLAST!Even with Pyrodex i couldn't see if i hit the target for a few seconds lol,towards the end i let my buddy shoot 100 grains of powder and fire just for shits and giggles,he fired without a hitch,then when i fired something strange happened,the cap went off but no BOOM,so i shot 2-3 more caps off and it finally went off,although it was delayed so when the cap went off i relaxed and it went off and smaked me in the cheek lol.I just assumed it was dirty,so when i got the gun home i noticed a cap was lodged under the hammer (more like a part of a cap.) and i got it out so it may have been that,or it might have been where we didn't swab the bore every 2-3 shots like we were since we fired 5-8 consecutively and didn't swab when that happened,other than that the gun fired perfectly.
I cleaned the gun very thoroughly,especially the bore.I came home and filled a pan full of hot soapy water (removed the nipple) and swabbed with a cleaning jag water in and out of the bore until the patches came out pretty clean,i didn't let the inside of the gun dry on it's on i took and swabbed clean patches in and out of the bore until dry and let the outside of the gun dry in the corner,barrel pointed down of course.I then cleaned the hammer as good as i could with hot water and the nipple as well.After and hour or two of letting it dry i took and sprayed patches with Break Free CLP and went over the hammer,bore,and the metal parts of the gun (not the nipple,unsure if i should coat it with CLP or not.When i coated it with CLP i noticed the patches still weren't 100% clean,it wasn't black stuff that was on them but something else?I don't believe it's rust since it only took me an hour or two to get back then i immediately started to clean it,so maybe this is normal?
My question now is should i reassemble the gun and let the CLP stay on the gun?Should i be worried about the patches not coming out 100% clean?Should i pump more water through the bore then re-coat it with CLP?And what could have caused the delay in the gun firing,i'm thinking it probably just got pretty dirty which caused a delay as the spark couldn't quite make it down the barrel.Does anyone have any tips or comments?Btw the gun didn't have nearly as much recoil as i thought it would have,at 50 grains it was just a gentle shove lol.
Your misfires and the hangfire were more than likely caused by the fragments of cap under the nose of your hammer. It's a good idea to check after every shot to be sure both the recess in the hammer nose and the nipple itself are clear, since percussion caps do like to leave debris behind to foul things up. I doubt the lack of frequent swabbing of the bore had anything to do with your problem since the most likely culprit was right there when you looked.
Sounds like you had a great time.
The Renegade, BTW, is a relatively heavy gun for its size, and heavier loads for hunting or longer-range shooting ought not be a problem in terms of recoil. Now muzzle blast will become an issue out of that 26" barrel, as you amp up the power, but shooting on the range you should be wearing ear protection and when you haul down on a whitetail I seriously doubt you will notice much less than an atomic bomb going off -- you tend to be sort of distracted at that point in time! ROFL thmbsup
That's what i believe it was to,my buddy that i was shooting with was the first to hit something with the gun lol,he hit a 1 gallon jug of water about 60 yards or so away....and let me just say a .50 caliber round ball will pretty much destroy a 1 gallon jug,the exit wound was huge!
Do you think i cleaned the gun pretty thoroughly Mongel?And is rubbing alcohol the only thing you can use to swab the bore before going shooting again?Or would a WD-40 soaked patch work pretty well followed up by some dry patches since i might be going shooting again tomorrow?Thanks.
Quote from: isaacdavis1214 on August 29, 2012
That's what i believe it was to,my buddy that i was shooting with was the first to hit something with the gun lol,he hit a 1 gallon jug of water about 60 yards or so away....and let me just say a .50 caliber round ball will pretty much destroy a 1 gallon jug,the exit wound was huge!
A couple years back we did some ballistic testing with the AZ Game & Fish, shooting blocks of ballistic gel 18" thick with two lined up in a row (36"). Every shot from a .50 cal. regardless of load penetrated the first block completely (at about 35 yards) including some with rib bones set in them. A couple ricocheted out the side or top, but enough penetrated all the way that it was obvious the others would too. The testing was to try & determine how much lead would be left behind in particles from the round ball, in light of Kalifornias lead ban in some areas. It was obvious the lead ball held together almost 100% while making a major wound channel. One shot I took with a 100 grain charge penetrated almost 24 inches after shattering a rib bone, then exited out the top of the gel with no noticeable lead left behind...
BTW, according to game & Fish, a considerable percentage of modern ammo shatters on impact with bone, leaving a lot of lead behind...
In the Hope of saving someone some Trouble in the future.
I am going to tell of some things that I have experienced in past years shooting adventures.
With a T/C Coil spring lock you can take the Hammer off and clean the outside of the lock and then take the lock out to clean and lube .Then you can put the Hammer back on no big deal.
If However you do this with a CVA, Traditions and Jukor and Ardesa etc...
The "V" spring will get loose and it will be a bit of a chore to get the Lock out of the stock. rdfce
And will take a Spring Vice to put the spring back in. hdslp pnic pnic
This will also bring you to another potential problem with the Ram Rod retainer spring getting loose and then you get to pull the Barrel to fix that pnic rdfce
Adjustable powder measures are a cool thing till the screw gets loose that holds the adjustment and you put in 100+ grains of powder and only wanted 50.
I caught this before putting the ball in so I put a wiping cloth down and dumped the big charge.
Reset the measure reloaded normally and proceeded to shoot what sounded like a Cannon pnic pnic pnic
Just because you dump the charge will not keep a good amount of powder from sticking in the Rifling hdslp pnic rdfce
(It kicked like a 85 grain hunting load with a Max Hunter and we were shooting PRB) pnic rdfce
You can get a manual and parts brake down on most CVA, Traditions and Jukor and Ardesa Guns by going to the Traditions web sight.
They call them different names but the guns are similar enough to help you figure things out.
Thompson Center has them on line too.
If you are new at this or need to refresh your memory this is a good resource.
If this saves someone some trouble then it is worth the grief of me learning these things the hard way. thmbsup
Isaac, if I gave you cleaning advice I would probably get jumped big-time. Enough to say that I've never had a cleaning patch come back lily-white, nor have I had my bores rust, because after drying them out I oil them. That's all the more I can say as to that without starting an argument, so someone else can take you step-by-step through the process and offer an opinion as to what constitutes clean enough.
I don't swab the bore out every few shots while shooting; I swab when I can't easily load any more, and I use plain water to do it. I use a rifle to kill deer and to practice for killing deer -- no other type of shooting or any more strict need for accuracy is of any concern to me. Since my deer hunting is done in heavy woods and I have yet to be offered a shot of longer than MAYBE 50-60 yards, my accuracy requirements would not satisfy most people even for plinking purposes.
I will defer to others more skilled or methodical than I am. I build guns and know much about their history and I try to teach folks to be safe with them -- beyond that I am far from being or claiming to be any sort of expert.
Rev i believe it,i would not under any circumstances want to be shot by that .50 ball!I will direct the questions i asked to Mongrel to everyone else,pretty much do you guys think i cleaned the gun well enough?And is rubbing alcohol the only thing you can use to swab the bore before going shooting again?Or would a WD-40 soaked patch work pretty well followed up by some dry patches since i might be going shooting again tomorrow?
Don't worry about a little left over carbon, your barrel is clean enough. One alcohol dampened cleaning patch tomorrow down and back before you start shooting will remove any excess oil left in the bore. Be safe and have fun.
The only problem is we dont have any rubbing alcohol pnic is there any other method of getting the oil out?If not i will have to buy some before i go shooting.
One or two dry patches on the cleaning jag, run in and out of the bore should soak up any left over oil, please don't panic.
and don't forget to snap a cap or two before you load for the first shot tomorrow.
If you have any trouble getting it to go off on the first shot, don't panic just unscrew the nipple and put a few grains of powder under it, screw the nipple back in, cap again and fire.
Thanks for the tips guys,i ran a dry patch down the bore just because i wanted to make sure it was clean,so i guess i almost already cleared the CLP from the bore lol.Should i re-lubricate it with CLP?Or what i am really trying to say is how often do you use rust protecting oil in your rifles?All the time,or only when you won't be shooting the gun?
I keeped telling myself powder,patch,ball the whole time i was shooting today.So i do try and remember whatever advice you guys have given me,can't wait to shoot it again,it's not guarenteed i'kk get to shoot it tomorrow but i hope i do,in my opinion shooting the Renegade was way more fun than any other gun i have had the privilege to shoot.
No need to redo the Break Free CLP unless the patch showed red. Unless you did something wrong it will be protected for quite a while and if you are shooting every week or even every few months it will still be fine.
Thanks Flintboomer,i didn't get to go shooting today but will most likely be going next week,can't wait!
Hey everyone i can go shooting again tomorrow with my rifle BUT there is a 50% chance of rain :'( should i still go and shoot (i will be outside.) or is it not worth it?Not sure how it would affect my gun if it started raining,the ironic thing is the next couple of days are going to be nice when i am at work (go figure.) so should i shoot tomorrow or not?Thanks everyone.
If you are out in the woods, Hunting and you see a Trophy deer, and at the same time it starts to rain, will you go home or stay and hunt? No better way to find out how rain effects the accuracy of the rifle than to go and shoot. Just dont let rain water get into bore or on the powder.
I`ve gone hunting many a time in a light drizzle , cap locks are usually ok , flinters can get persnickety ! pnic but usually not something you cant fix ! you can make or buy a leather piece that wraps around the rifle where the lock is , called a cows knee ! taint perfect , but does help !
One purpose of the somewhat traditional BIG Brimmed Hat is to keep rain out of the barrel. If you have some kind of shelter with a roof use it, but yes you can shoot in the rain. Like Beowolf said I have hunted all day in snow and rain and not had any problem if I did my part with percussion. Flint is a little harder to take care of but still works if you know how and are careful.
Thanks everyone,it was pouring down when i got up so i didn't go today.I may be going Friday to shoot and it should be good shootin weather i'm ready to make some smoke!It's nice to know a little drizzle isn't going to render the gun unable to fire (most of the time anyway). hntr