Where I live in NH everything is pretty much vertical both ways. Not the rockies by any stretch ,but steep, slippery, and craggy. I am interested in wearing moccasins hunting but do not want to break my neck ski-ing down a hardwood ridge backwards (or forwards for that matter). Is moccasin use sensible here? Is there a period sole pattern that is acceptable?
Blackfeet
I can not help you with a PC pair of moccasins, I would however say that for yur own saftey you would be better of with something with a rubber soul
Being PC is great but if you go out for a couple of hours of fun in your PC clothing and end up 2 weeks, 2 months, or worse. I think the fun gets lost some where.
Just the way this old man sees things.
Good advice old salt. I am curious now, If a fella were going to look up PC mocs for rough terrain, where would he start. This sounds like a research topic that will be hard to find information for. But, I know they had cobblers back then, military with foot coverings started around the Roman times. My intelligent and good friend Blackfeet and I live and roam in the same type of terrain, so I am "a wonderin'" too.
I was thinking that an enterprising soul may have been able to sew on an outer sole with stitched gathers that formed raised vee's or something of that sort?
I suppose you could stitch/tie together some sort of wooden lace-on forebear of the crampon?
In one of Mark Bakers book's he has a picture of a guy that used a leather strip to go around the bottom of his moccasins then around the bottom of his leggings and then tie at the back of his moccasins.
This keeps the top of your moccasins covered by the leggings and keeps snow and mud,Sticks and dirt out.
Plus I noticed that the thong under the foot helps to keep from sliding on wet grass rocks etc....
It also keeps the moccasin on your foot when walking in sticky mud and deep snow.
I make a couple of passes under the foot for a little better grip now.
Not perfect by any measure but better than the skies Moccasins can turn into on wet grass, snow, mud etc....
One thing you have to remember is that back then their feet were tough, not pampered like today. Also they knew how to walk on those types of surfaces because they did it every day, that's all there was. Now as to something that will help traction using mocs. On my treking mocs I used to sew an extra thick piece of veg tan (flesh side out) to the bottom as an extra sole. To that I would apply Shoe Goo about an 1/8th in. thick to the extra sole, spread it even with an old table knife. Then I would make crosshatch marks in the Shoe Goo and let it dry over night. It's not a 100% guarantee but it sure does help and can't be seen as long as you keep your feet on the ground.
That Sir, was my purpose in starting this thread, keeping my feet pointed in the proper direction, facing down at the ground instead of all the alternatives as I carom down a hillside ROFL
I like that idea of the shoe goo. Did you bring the extra sole all the way up to the original height or punch new holes?
I was using center seams so it was just sewed to the bottom. Make sure you spread it over the edge of the sewn on sole, helps keep some of the wetness out.
One thing I pick up on in reading about original mocs (no in-depth study, just remarks here and there) is that they wore out fairly quickly, hence were often made (or re-soled) on the spot, and to pass along a quote from an original wearer of the things, who was NOT paying the footwear any form of compliment -- "they were a decent form of going barefoot."
I don't recall much in the way of period-original remarks on improving the traction of the things. Logic would sort of dictate that being a more-or-less disposable form of footwear the basic moc was constructed, worn, worn out, repaired or discarded, repeat. I doubt for basic footwear a longhunter or mountain man had much in the way of access to either a cobbler's services or skills, which would mean that whatever was done to improve traction or otherwise try to solve the problem of slipping was improvised pretty much on the spot. The idea of a lacing of some sort, passing under the sole of the moc, sounds reasonable enough.
I will second Old Salt's recommendation on stepping back from strictly PC, here, pun intended. I used to do all my hunting in centerseam mocs, and became fairly adept at utilizing rocks, tree roots, even small dead bushes and such, and even at that I did my fair share of slipping and sliding. And THAT was just on a single path to and from my deer blind, where I knew every step well enough I could have walked it in the dark. If I had to still-hunt in wet or snowy woods, much as it might gall me, I'd switch over to proper hunting boots. Taking PC to the extreme of putting oneself in real danger is right up there with the guys who refuse to carry potentially lifesaving medications and such, when their health issues call for those items, because heart meds and epipens and such aren't PC. Back in the day accidents were one of the leading causes of premature death, and reenacting a long-ago hunter slipping, breaking a leg, and dying of shock and exposure is just IMHO taking things a bit too far....
All stated with tongue fairly firmly in cheek, so don't take me too awful seriously -- just be safe is all....
This is about what I had concluded after just dubbing around on the side hill behind the house in the dead leaves but thought I would kick it around a little. I couldn't imagine dragging a critter out of the woods in any moccasins that I have seen.
The problem I would see with most modifications to moccasins is (and this is what I was trying to drive at in my last post, but I sidetracked myself), if one stays PC the question arises of how much trouble a man back then would have gone to with footwear that wasn't going to last all that long. Now if one were to wear leather-soled PC shoes, which are also very tricky in any wet or otherwise slick conditions, those lasted much longer even back in the day and it would be absolutely correct to equip them with hobnails or some other means of giving your feet a little more "grab" on the slippery slopes. Plus on most original-style shoes there is a distinct heel, fairly low but still something that will sink slightly into the ground in many wet situations and give you a bit of anchor to each step.
Problem is, shoes are a lot harder to make than mocs. However if you go store-bought'n they're not any more expensive than GOOD mocs -- I paid $100 for a pair of Fugawee lace-up half-boots that strongly resemble the light leather desert boots I wear when I'm not in either work boots or mocs. You can't touch too many really good pairs of mocs for much lower than that price.
I'll throw out another idea, not a pleasant one to actually contemplate doing but probably a very likely original solution to the problem. It's documented that a great many country-boy soldiers in the Continental Army, during the Revolution, went barefoot by preference. I am not suggesting doing that full-time but I would venture a guess that in really bad conditions, footing-wise, hunters and others on the frontier took their mocs off. They'd have known as well as any of us today, that there are times you flat-out aren't going to be able to keep your feet, in mocs (or even shoes). They weren't thinking of PC considerations, obviously -- they were thinking of saving life and limb while still staying on the move.
There was a show on the tube that had a military type and a minimalist outdoor trainer called Dual Survival. It didn't last but point is the fella went around barefoot in most situations. In snow, he only wore socks.
So anyway, I figured that I would try it on an afternoon outing on a hiking trail. Tenderfoot that I am, it was very surefooted, quiet, but extremely slow. I am assuming that speed would improve after the feet toughened up a little. But then again, the Merrels work pretty well too.
redwings work good too
Just a thought here. I understand that while filming "Last of the Mohicans" they originally tried using actual moccasins. Traction problems and tender feet resulted in wearing running shoes with leather added to the uppers to give the look of moccasins. Might be worth a little experimenting.
Storm
These are not pc but they will add to traction;
http://www.moccasins-by-internet.com/products/Men%27s--Moosehide-Weekend-Moc-%252d-Hand-Sewn--Moccasin.html
Back in the 70's I bought a pair of double soled moccassins from L L Bean, wan't into pb, just a romantic, well that ended fast. Lasted about as long as the mocs. When walking uphill one day, my foot slipped out of moc and I ended up face in dirt and SORE. Mocs may be PC, BUT they didnt have any thing else to wear. The mocs only gave a little better protection to feet. If they had the boots we now have, Do you think they would have worn Mocs? Yes when the soles wore out! In a recent search it was stated in the Lewis and Clark journal, that some of the men traded their shoes/boot for Mocs, in the beginning before setting out from St Loius. But we have to remember something more. When wearing moccassins, one does not walk the same as with boots. For added traction walk with toes pointed OUT, as if walking up an incline of snow covered terrain. Even skiers walk this way when on ski's and trying to go uphill.
I just came across this topic. A totally pc way for traction is to use ice creepers. strap them to your feet and off you go. I even use these occassionally at rendevous when the grass gets worn down and slicker than snot! Give them a try, they work well. thmbsup
this discussion got me to thinking about how we seem to just plow along , putting up with the slippin an sliding. I don,t know how many of you remember all the rationing durring WW2 , but it was next to impossible to find tires to drive to work. Don,t know who thought up the idea but they started a system of recapping solid casings with a mixture of sawdust and soft rubber. As the soft rubber wore down , the particles of sawdust/chips would fall out and leave little pits that really helped traction on snow/ice and other hard slippery surfaces. I,ve never used shoe goo , but seems a person might use the sawdust mixed with the shoe goo. By using a dark colored sawdust it would kinda cover up the goo appearence?
flwa thmbsup [conf]
walnut shells are currently being used as the traction component in snow tires. and they are already dark
http://www.sodhoppers.com/html/goop.html
Try this link, this guy makes real expensive mocs but he also sells " Sole in a Jar" used in the bottom of mocs
Johnny
How you walk makes a difference as well. Folks accustomed to wearing shoes with heels bring their heel down first when walking. When wearing mocs you should bring your foot down flat or ball-first. Putting your heel down first puts only a small part of your foot, and available traction, in contact with the ground which makes it easier to slip.
Storm
A bit of natural fiber (read manila) rope passed under the toes, crossed on top and back under the arch and up around ankle may pinch at sides of the foot a little, but sure give "no slip" bottom to your mocs, We do see a little snow, ice and wet leaves(pine needles) here..
Just my pc solution...
Doug
Ranger has got it right. Ice creepers are referred to in accounts of Rogers Rangers winter treks several times. They could be very basic strap ons.
Mark
mocs can be a literal pain in the backside , found that out walking down a steep hill over wet leaves . but there are thing that can help , a wrap of burlap over the mocs can help with traction quite a bit , another idea you could try is in the "collectors illustrated encyclopedia of the american revolution " page 124 plate 13 . interesting idea . sort of a wooden "flip flop " with a metal ring attached to the bottom for traction in mud , figure if you are good at wood work you might not even need the ring ! just cut a series of grooves across the sole ! anyone tries it let the rest of us know how it works out !
I have no idea about snow, but you can get good traction on ice by slippin an old pair of cotton or wool socks over your moccasins...
Quote from: spooked on October 18, 2013, 02:21:07 AM
I have no idea about snow, but you can get good traction on ice by slippin an old pair of cotton or wool socks over your moccasins...
I`ve done that ! works fairly well in snow !
After bustin my butt on the ice while wearing moccasins, I asked my friend who jumped the reservation many years ago how did his people deal with this, and he said pine pitch and sand.
pine pitch and sand...yes, I can probably find that....sand paper on bottom..great idea..
Doug