Have been told the 1:48 twist was'nt good for either conicals or balls. I had a T/C hawken in .54 that shot the Maxi balls rather well but never shot a round ball through it to find out if it liked them. Anyone with more experience iwth this i would appriciate their opinion. Just wonder if it was a fluke it shot the Maxi fairly well meaning inside 2" at 100yds.
[hmm] Thompson centers are funny,ive had several over the years,all wit the compromise twist.Most shot decent,some dismal and some ourstanding.Ive got a tc hawken now that will shoot just as well as my old cva hawken that had a 1in66 twist.And it'll do it wt prb or maxi's.Methinks there might be witchcraft involved.
never had any trouble with a 1 in 48 twist barrel , owned a few and all shot well . have an austen halleck mountain rifle with a 1 in 23 twist , supposed to be optimum for conicals , have yet to see the proof of it !
So then you found it to shoot ball reasonably well?
Overall a 1-48" twist will shoot PRB better than the guy holding the rifle. There are exceptions to this -- there are exceptions to every rule of thumb in the BP world -- but generally this is the case. As for conicals, I can't say, I've never shot one through a traditionally-styled rifle.
This isn't to say that a barrel rifled with slow twist isn't more inherently accurate, only that IMHO most shooters, unless their guns are benchrested, aren't likely to be able to tell the difference.
[hmm] Now this is just my warped brain thinkin,mayhaps the reason prb shoots good for me in the 1/48 is that i dont shoot the monster loads some of my shootin friends do.I usually stick with aroun 70 grains pure black,490 ball,.015 pillowtick.A lot of them use 100 grains o powder an wonder why there riles are not acurate with prb.With a slower twist it works. But with 1/48 they are strippin the patch.My old cva with the 1/66 was accurate up to 100 grains.Course yur mileage may vary.
A 1-48" twist goes all the way back to the 18th century so is not something "new". It's not a particularly fast twist, either. The smaller calibers seem to do their best with this and similar twists. I've owned quite a few rifles with this twist and accuracy with prb has been all I could ask for.
My favorite .50 cal target rifle has a 1/48 twist. In 50-54 caliber I had one that would not shoot conicals well and one that would not shoot prb with more than 45 gr.
I have also gotten conicals to stabilize in a 1 in 72 twist but it took 120+ gr to keep it stabil to 100 yds.
For targets I tell people to start with their twist and work both ways when looking for the most accurate load but that assumes that they are using 40-58 caliber. Smaller calibers and pistols have different rules.
The final determination will be up to you and the rifle. The odds are that a 1 in 48 rifle will shoot prb quite well, especially if you take time to try it with several different combinations. FF is usually better with heavy loads and FFF usually works best with light loads.
I was just out shooting my 1:48- .54 today, tried out some 425 gr. Great Plains bullets to see if they were reasonably accurate. My usual charge of 85 grain 2f just wasn't enough so I upped it to 90 and that improved things but it wasn't until I added a wad between the bullet and powder that they really tightened up. It isn't unheard of for rifles with the same twist rate to only like one or the other but it is fairly rare. It may just take a little more time at the range experiementing with things to find the best combination.
Of course none of us here really want to have to spend more time at the range, messing with our guns.... ROFL
Seriously, in regard to various twists and what's supposed to work best for this, that, or the other -- in a .50 caliber there are many who swear up and down that for optimum accuracy a twist in the 1-66" to 1-70" range is best, and that in a .54 this is even more the case. I find it interesting that no one ventures to criticize Colerain barrels for cutting their barrels at 1-56" for both .50 and .54 caliber; nor have I ever heard of anyone finding a Colerain barrel to be less than stunningly accurate. So while, yes, a slower twist SHOULD, overall, deliver better accuracy than faster, I'm nowhere near convinced the twist has to be AS slow as many insist, nor that 1-48" is any real handicap shooting PRB. The trick is what others have said -- experiment and practice and allow your gun to tell you what it likes best.
I`ve had very good accuracy from a tc hawken ,and a cva mountain rifle , just about equal , the cva has a slower twist 1 in 66. one of the longest shots I`d ever made with it ( .54 cal big bore mountain rifle ) was 150 yards at an old grain elevator . my uncles and cousins were shooting at it with an old carcano , and an enfield .30 -06 . and missing . I loaded 120 grains of black and a mini ball . not only did we hear it strike , it made one hell of a dent !hit where I was aiming !so try out different projectiles and powder loads , never know what might work until you try it !
A 1:48 barrel will shoot round ball just fine. It is a little more picky on load than a longer twist barrel but will shoot well with some range work. I think the bad reputation of 1:48 barrels comes from someone getting one for Christmas and promptly going to the range, stuffing the highest load in the book into it and blazing away. They then wonder why it won't shoot in 6 inches at 50 yards. Most to the original Hawkins had a 1:48 twist and did just fine.
Longer twists are more forgiving on loads. If you are five grains off the sweet spot with a long twist, your group may open up a little. A lot of 1:48 barrels will spread an inch by being that far off. T/Cs have the extra problem of shallow groves. They need a snug patch and ball combo to keep from "jumping" the rifling.
Whether tight or longer twist, most barrel have two sweet spots as far a load goes. One is right around caliber - 45 to 55 grains in a .50. There is usually another about 25 or 30 grains more. Just work up the load that gives the best groups and stick with that.
I got to shoot a little today and was offered some Maxi-balls for my TC standard .50, 1-48. I had always shot PRB through this barrel with good results. Short session short, the gun grouped both about the same at 50 yds offhand. Admittedly a lot of operator variables there but I was surprised and content that if a moose permit came along.............
There ya go. Nothing like going out and seeing for yourself!
Cuts short a lot of silly arguments. Either the other guy realizes you're speaking from experience and drops it (can't too well argue with it, if it works....) or you realize you're dealing with an idiot who can't be persuaded by mere facts, and go find something better to occupy your time.
Like shooting more.... thmbsup
It is hard to beat range time and experimentation when you want to find out exactly what your muzzleloader will do, however this assumes that you started with the right basic information.
Most of us are happy to disagree about lubes, loads, exact cleaning procedures, best caliber, best style of gun etc., but you and your rifle are the final authority on the matter.
PRB or conical? Try them and find out!
What load did you try with the conicals?
80 gr should give you around 1300fps and 1500 ft lb of muzzle energy
100 gr should be around 1500 and 1800 depending on which powder and which conical you choose
A patched ball will give you more velocity but less energy.
I actually split the difference and was using 90 grs of 2f. PRB load was 70 grs
Sounds like you are on the right track.
o.k. so I'm getting a rifle with1:48 about where should i start with powder loads. i will be shooting prb at 177 grain. I'm new to black powder but shoot a modern rifle reasonable well. i know that i have to experiment with powder charges to work up a load. i just need a base charge so the bullet doesn't get stuck in the barrel. so don't blast me to bad .hdslp
Just ask any 'dry baller'.. They will tell you that 3-4gr. of ffff will get it out of the barrel..you might want to try just a tad more though....my 32 with prb likes either 23gr or 32gr....my 40---well up to 65gr...anything from just under bore dia. to 1 1/2 times bore dia.(50gr for 50cal) may work for you...usually the higher one for powerful hunting load, but accurate paper load can be found with a lot less powder burned...just barrel harmonics to figure out..good luck..
Doug
Quote from: DandJofAZ on February 21, 2011, 04:16:37 PM
Just ask any 'dry baller'.. They will tell you that 3-4gr. of ffff will get it out of the barrel..you might want to try just a tad more though....my 32 with prb likes either 23gr or 32gr....my 40---well up to 65gr...anything from just under bore dia. to 1 1/2 times bore dia.(50gr for 50cal) may work for you...usually the higher one for powerful hunting load, but accurate paper load can be found with a lot less powder burned...just barrel harmonics to figure out..good luck..
Doug
My .54 hawkins likes 55 gr of fffg for target and 100 gr for hunting loads gives me a nice small group at 100 yards with prb and .10 ticking spitpatch but each rifle is different..
Sixty grains of 3f is super accurate in both my flint .50 and percussion .54. I go up a little for the woods.
srndr o.k. lets get more specific. i will be using 777 powder .490 177 grain patched ball. i just don't want to use the ball puller right away. i know somewhere down the line i will be using it . i just don't want it to be my first shoot. i will be shooting at any legal deer that crosses my path.
Quote from: captkody on February 21, 2011, 05:22:29 PM
srndr o.k. lets get more specific. i will be using 777 powder .490 177 grain patched ball. i just don't want to use the ball puller right away. i know somewhere down the line i will be using it . i just don't want it to be my first shoot. i will be shooting at any legal deer that crosses my path.
anything over 5 gr of any powder will push the ball through the barrel - how far it goes after that is a matter of speculation.... :blech: Just remember 100 gr of 777 pt down the barrel after the ball will result in a few choice words and the use of a ball puller....
Don't worry about having to use the ball puller just remember the mantra "Powder, Patch, Then Ball..."
:mini-devil-28492:
If you're going to use 777, I'd use 40 gr. to start and work up loads from there. In my .50 With a 1/66 twist & flintlock, I use 50 gr. for paper punching and in my wife's .50 w/a 1/48 twist & caplock, we used 45 gr. of ffG Goex or 40 gr. of 777 in ffG equiv. 777 develops slightly more pressure so you should reduce the loads 10-15% from Goex. Part of the fun of muzzleloading is finding out the best loads for different purposes so have a blast(pun intended ). You will eventually have a shot were the ball's in the bbl afterwards. It happens to all of us , and if someone shoots a lot and says otherwise,well I won't call him a liar but I won't necessarily beleive him.
i
hntr thanks a lot. the rifle is 1:48 caplock I know that sooner or later i will have to pull a ball. i just don't want it to happen on my first shot!
Quote from: captkody on February 21, 2011, 05:22:29 PM
srndr o.k. lets get more specific. i will be using 777 powder .490 177 grain patched ball. i just don't want to use the ball puller right away. i know somewhere down the line i will be using it . i just don't want it to be my first shoot. i will be shooting at any legal deer that crosses my path.
Triple 7 being 15% more energetic than the same amount of black powder, you should start with 45 grains, shooting three, swabing with an alcohol pad after every shot and increasing by 5 grain increments until you find the sweet spot.
I know that it's all a learning process. I'll just have to find out what work for my rifle
Since you are planning to use 777, not all guns go off well with regular percussion caps and 777. Try both regular and magnum caps.
777 is not recommended for flinters.
777 is also the only fake black powder I would use. The other "replacements" all have some serious disadvantages.
If you do get a ball down without powder just take the nipple out and trickle in some 4f or 3f powder (someone should have the real thing.) screw the nipple back in, cap and fire it out into the dirt, or else get someone to blow it out with a CO2 discharger.
By the way, half the fun of using muzzleloaders is finding out what each one likes.
Quote from: captkody on February 21, 2011, 10:53:59 PM
I know that it's all a learning process. I'll just have to find out what work for my rifle
That's most of the fun when it comes to muzzleloading.
Forgot to add that I second that on using magnum caps with T-7.
I like what I am reading, I think there is hope for me yet. Although I am a die hard pyrodex user, I found I couldn't get accuracy with patched round balls. I know there are more things I coulda tried, but I spent a huge amount of time experimenting, with help from experienced BP shooters. It was suggested that I try it, some one gave me some on the spot, and within a short time found a decent load for rb. I was introduced to maxi balls and at that point I found a suitable spread at 100 yards. haven't changed anything since.