Need to find a barrel and percussion lock for my son's Lyman great plains rifle. His rifle is a flint and wants a barrel and lock so he can shoot both at rondies. If anyone can help me out let me know how much. Thanks flwa
Why do they have seperate events there for flint and percusion? We allow any rifle at ours flint or percusion
Quote from: Red Badger on November 16, 2010
Why do they have seperate events there for flint and percusion? We allow any rifle at ours flint or percusion
It is usually not a matter of "allowing" different ignition systems, but rather of having multiple categories for prizes & such. For instance, here in Phoenix at the NMLRA's Western National Shoot we have a Senaca Run (5 shots over a 300 yard course, timed for the tie breaker) with three different categories, Smoothbore, Flint & Percussion. Also, Men, Women & Juniors categories in each event. Sort of levels the playing field. Rules are you can shoot a smoothie in any category, Flint in Flint & Percussion, & Percussion shooters can only compete in the Percussion category. Basically going in reverse order by degree of difficulty.
Makes sense to me now....
Yeah they have all kinds of different catagories out here. It can make a weekend fun. Sorry about the late reply. slep
I contacted LYman a few years ago about getting a flint lock system to replace my percussion system on my Great Plains. they told me that the inletting of the locks was different for the two systems, and the conversion was not possible. Better check with Lyman before you get too deep
check out Lyman products web page, look under Frequently asked questions. Lyman states that to convert from Flint to Percussion or from Percussion to Flint, the stock must be modified and cannot be converted back to original . Also they state that to buy a lock and barrel, it would be less expensive to purchase a complete rifle considering the stock can't be returned to original state.
That's a quick and easy way to guarantee the sale of a complete new rifle. It would have been actually easier to design the locks and their corresponding breechplugs and stock inlets so as to allow a drop-in swap. One inletting pattern could have been used, making any stock produced suitable for either type of ignition system. Instead of passing this bit of savings along to their customers and making what's already a good value even better, or applying the savings in set-up costs to their own bottom line, the manufacturers apparently want the larger profit involved in selling a new rifle. It can't be that they're unaware of the concept of converting flint to percussion or vice/versa -- the process of conversion from flint has been going on since the 1820's, "re-conversions" from percussion back to original flint configuration are common in the realm of antique firearms, and lock manufacturers like Siler and L&R catalog interchangeable versions of many of their locks as standard items.
Doesn't change that the Lyman GPR (and by extension most any Italian-made halfstock) is a good-to-great value for the money, but someone IMHO dropped the ball on this particular feature.
On a TC there are only some minor inletting differences that can be done in a few minutes without any problem. After that I can switch back and forth in about one minute.
I rarely do it because I have a couple of Pedersoli flinters that are more accurate and dependable than my TC flint barrel.
I don't have any experience with Lymans except to know that they have a good reputation.
Actually, I have a GPR flintlock (just the lock) in the shop -- first chance I get (meaning the first percussion GPR I'm able to examine) if I haven't sold the gun it's going into I'm going to check to see how far off it would be, comparing it to a percussion lock and inlet. Be interesting to see if Lyman bases "impossible" on a few slivers of wood or if it really would bugger up the inlet too much to be do-able.
would be interesting to know... Not that i will ever attempt to put the components needed to make a rifle or pistol together myself... I do know some of my limitations! bunkr
Well, I discovered in my "lock pile" that I have one of the Italian-made Navy Arms percussion locks. Some of these Italian mechanisms as marketed under different names (Lyman, Dixie, Cabela's, Navy Arms, etc) differ very slightly from one another, and won't be 100% drop-in interchangeable, but comparing the percussion unit to the Lyman GPR flinter I can report this:
The lockplates are about identical in shape. The Navy Arms has a very slightly different curve to it, directly behind the hammer, and to install it into the GPR flint mortice would require either relieving the wood there by not much more than a 1/32" sliver, or taking a tiny bit off the edge of the plate with a fine file.
The lockplate bolster of the percussion lock, that mates up to the snail on the breechplug and the side flat of the barrel, extends down over the inside surface of the plate to join the bolster that the lock retaining bolt threads into. On the Lyman the main bolster is separate from the smaller round bolster that the lock bolt threads into. After either modifying the percussion lockplate or relieving the wood of the stock, as described above, a small amount of wood would have to be removed inside the lock mortice to accomodate the differently-shaped bolster. This would neither show, with the lock installed, nor affect the integrity of the stock in the slightest.
Other than these two very minor points the lockplates and the shape and location of the internals of the two mechanisms are precisely the same. Bearing in mind that one lock is a Navy Arms, the other a Lyman, they're close enough to identical that I could have the percussion lock in the flint mortice in about fifteen minutes. I will not assume that the percussion Lyman lockplate is as close to the flint version, as the Navy Arms lockplate is -- but it stands to reason it would be. This can't be taken for granted, though. Also, without access to one actual inletted Lyman stock and both a flint and percussion barrel, it can't be guaranteed that the snail on the percussion breechplug and the vent hole on the flint are located in such a way that swapping out the barrels and dropping a new lock into the slightly-modified mortice would have things lined up properly. The flint mortice might be located a bit further back or a bit further forward on the stock than is the case with the percussion setup.
But as far as the locks themselves go, based on the two in my possession, anyone halfway handy with a file and a 1/4" chisel could have the percussion lock fitted into the flint mortice with minimal effort and difficulty. It would involve slight modification of the inletting, and maybe that bit of wood removal is more than Lyman wants its customers doing to one of their rifles -- but "impossible" it most certainly isn't.
Were it me I'd find someone with a percussion GPR who'd let me play around with the parts, seeing how they fit back and forth, before I gave up on this idea of having an extra barrel and lock so that the rifle could be switched from flint to percussion and back again. If all that's involved are the two small tweaks that I described, finding a barrel and lock separate from the rest of the rifle will be the only real obstacle to making this idea a reality.
Again, I am NOT saying this can be done -- but based on close comparison of the two locks in my possession, so far I don't see why not.
Mongrel, if I can find a lyman lock without going thru lyman, and could ship all components and gun to you would you be interested in trying? Also do you have any idea how much you would want? Thanks
Quote from: BrokenHawk on February 21, 2011
Mongrel, if I can find a lyman lock without going thru lyman, and could ship all components and gun to you would you be interested in trying? Also do you have any idea how much you would want? Thanks
Sure, I'd give it a shot. If it can be done at all it's a 99% sure thing it'll be quick and easy, at least for me (been doing this for over fifteen years and I do have to stop and remember, sometimes, my definition of "easy" might snap someone else out ROFL). If it can't be done I'll know pretty much the moment I lay the percussion barrel in and position the lock over the mortice.
If there's nothing I can do with it, you'll have to cover the postage both ways, but I won't charge you for having basically done nothing except shake my head and go, "Nope." If it does work and it's as easy as I anticipate, $10 for the work will cover it, and of course you pick up the shipping. If it can be done but it'll be harder than I had thought, I'll get a handle on what's going to be involved, let you know what we're up against, and quote you a price based on that. Since I love tinkering with these things and also love solving puzzles, even if I have to fiddle-fart and fuss with it to make it work I doubt I'll charge much more than $15-$20. I'd figure the learning experience on my end is worth something in itself. And of course the work will be done right or I won't do it to start with.
You could probably get a green mountain barrel that would drop in. That way you would only need the lock.
Mike, do you know if the GPR percussion lock and the Trade Rifle lock are the same plate? If so, I've got one setting here. Let me know.
According to this parts site, the locks are the same. http://www.lymanproducts.com/store/page156.html
I believe $119.95 (the price on the above site) for any percussion lock is, as my dad always quaintly put it, "farting in the breeze", but I notice that Italian-made locks are expensive no matter what supplier you price them from.
BTW I believe on another thread Brokenhawk said he already had the barrel -- a lock is all he needs, now.
Mongrel gotta wait till payday and will let you know. My buddy just sold me a 50 cal lyman plains barrel for $75.00. Getting closer ;D
My buddy just sold me a lyman 50 cal great plains barrel for $75.00. 1 down 1 to go. I think I'll have Mongrel work on it for me. It sure looks like he does dang good work on that stuff. I fixed,refitted and refinished a cva 50 cal pistol last year but that was easy. Let the pro's do the big stuff. flwa Whoops sorry about the double post.
Brokenhawk, did you get my PM?
Gotem both, was looking at it and they both fit. Have to file one little spot on the lock. Could this have already been a percussion stock that someone converted to flint? Sorry about the crappy photo.
Heres a better pic of the lock area.
Lymans locks use the same internals, flint or cap. If you ever convert over to L&R locks you will need to hog out some material, but both L&R locks will fit the modification. Factory locks won't fit right any more.
Quote from: BrokenHawk on March 15, 2011
Gotem both, was looking at it and they both fit. Have to file one little spot on the lock. Could this have already been a percussion stock that someone converted to flint? Sorry about the crappy photo.
I tend to think either Lyman has changed the profile of their lockplates, slightly, or that they simply don't want people performing conversions of their guns for reasons of both liability and it being more profitable to them to have you send your rifle in and let them do the work.
Good deal on getting things to work! Just make sure the pan of that flintlock mates up solidly, with zero gap, to the side barrel flat. No reason it wouldn't, just throwing out the advice -- priming powder getting inside your lock inlet will lead to some fireworks that you won't like.
Thanks mongrel, gonna try to go out and shoot it this weekend, if I have problems you still might end up with me shipping it to you.